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Original poster

In praise of comprehensive schools

893 replies

FreshHorizons · 23/08/2016 14:51

It was cheering to see the Sutton Trust announce that 60% of Team GB medalists came from comprehensive schools.

I have finally come off a thread where certain people can't find a good word to say about comprehensive schools. They equate them with mixed ability teaching, poor behaviour and an inability to stretch bright children.

I would like a thread to celebrate the best of comprehensive education.

In my case it allowed my 3 , very different, children to be able to go to the same school without being judged by outsiders. It meant the stability of knowing one school over a long period of time and them knowing our family. It meant that days off and parent evenings didn't clash and that money was saved by handing down uniform. They were able to move up with the bulk from their primary school. They were able to mix with children of different abilities and backgrounds, as you do in adult life. It meant being able to enjoy education for the joy of learning new things, without the stress of an exam that would determine their path in life, aged only 10 or 11yrs.

Those things didn't really matter, although they were helpful.

What really mattered was that they could all blossom at their own rate.
They all got a good education and are now happily established in careers- the careers that they chose.

It wasn't all about the academic side- there were opportunities in sport, music, outdoor activities etc.

It would be nice to have some success stories. Please don't post about crap schools- start another thread for that if you have grievances you want to air.

It is the summer, the sun is out and some happy, optimistic stories would be nice. Smile

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 28/08/2016 10:29

It's not about the intake. It's about the admissions procedures.

Original poster
FreshHorizons · 28/08/2016 11:05

They are still comprehensives Clavinova - I did specifically say 'if the state is not creaming off local children'.

OP posts:
LunaLoveg00d · 28/08/2016 11:16

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, Clavinova.

East Renfrewshire is an affluent area. High proportion of well-educated parents, professional people, high-achieving kids. So the schools reflect that. Other parts of Glasgow with very poor attainment are in the most deprived areas. You'd find exactly the same pattern in London, Manchester or Bristol. The schools in East Ren or other similar areas still take each and every child in their catchment area, so are comprehensive. It just so happens that the catchment area is predominantly middle class. That doesn't make it unfair at all - it's just the demographics of the intake. East Ren schools and schools in other areas too - are aware that some parents will lie about address to get into the best schools and are trying to put a stop to it. This is not a situation unique to Scotland.

Unless of course you feel that state comps should be selecting their students on the basis of their parents' occupations or incomes rather than where they live.

BertrandRussell · 28/08/2016 11:47

"Unless of course you feel that state comps should be selecting their students on the basis of their parents' occupations or incomes rather than where they live."

The trouble is that in some cases (not as many as Mumsnet thinks, I suspect) that is ^exactly what they are doing. Which is why some sort of lottery is the only fair admissions policy.

LunaLoveg00d · 28/08/2016 11:59

But not in the Scottish examples she gave. You could argue that it's self-selection - buying a property in East Renfrewshire or East Dunbartonshire in the catchment for a very high achieving comprehensive will cost you more than buying a property in other parts of Glasgow. But the rule still stands that anyone who lives in the catchment gets into the school, and there are no plans to change that in Scotland, as far as I know.

Introducing a lottery system would cause huge problems with siblings being sent to different schools, children having to navigate across the city as they can't go to their local school any more and less sense of the school at the heart of the community. It's very impractical.

sandyholme · 28/08/2016 12:11

Perhaps we could have school lotteries drawn live on BBC 1 just before Match of the Day !.

It would be 'riveting ' to watch the faces of parents in the audience , who after paying taxes all their lives have the misfortune of their children being sent to the 'Shithole' part of town !

I suspect though that Bertrand is a 'double' agent for ISIS (Independent schools information service) because no doubt applications for private schools would increase 'four' fold and a market for selling ' kIdney's' would evolve.

EllyMayClampett · 28/08/2016 14:33

Lotteries cause their own problems. Fewer children can walk to school: more cars on the road. More complicated school pickups: more burdens that fall disproportionately on women who might like to work. In a modern world where we done all go to church together in Sunday: one less shared institution holding communities together.

I don't think it will catch on beyond Brughton and Hove.

mumsneedwine · 28/08/2016 14:46

I assume anyone advocating a lottery system lives in a town ! In rural areas it would be impossible. Our nearest school
is over 3 miles away, next is 5, then 9. Currently the school bus (free) picks everyone up and drops them at the same school. To do this at various schools, with buses coming and going in all directions would be a joke. There are some amazing comprehensives in very deprived areas so it is possible. But not if you can't fervour Heads or staff to work there. Teachers are in a buyers market and can chose where they want to work, as they are in short (& getting shorter) supply.

HPFA · 28/08/2016 15:07

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BertrandRussell · 28/08/2016 15:11

"And why do you think grammars are a solution to these comprehensives you dislike so much? Removing a few children from them is not going to improve them is it?"

People who support grammar schools don't actually care about any child who wouldn't get into one. They say they do- sometimes they even genuinely think they do. But they don't.

TaIkinPeace · 28/08/2016 15:31

clavinova
My issue with my local school is not and has never been the children
for a start most of the local kids are on the bus up to the other school
by most I mean 60 at the local school, 90 on the bus
my issue with the local school is that it is run by an unaccountable evangelical Christian Trust who have been hauled up by the NAO for diverting funds offshore.

The entry form when my kids were age 11 consisted of : Postcode, three choices of school
nothing more
I jumped through no hoops I attended no church.
The schools are comps
END OF

I totally support accountable comprehensive schools.
My local LEA is working miracles (and is a UK leader) on excluded pupils
if the management of the local school had been the choice that the parents had voted for, I'd have saved a fortune on bus fares
as would the other families from round here.

I do not regret my choice - part of the reason I am so overt about it
it was right for my kids
it was right for their friends
it has sent the right message to the DfE

HPFA · 28/08/2016 15:37

Bertrand Absolutely.

I don't get why grammar supporters always resort to such personal attacks. Or maybe I do....

twitter.com/samfr/status/762569502894780416

HPFA · 28/08/2016 16:06

Talkingpeace This whole "should go to your nearest school" is a nonsense in the era of "choice". Why should a convinced atheist have to send their kids to the nearest school if its a faith school? Or single-sex if they want mixed? We can certainly argue over the rights and wrongs of school admissions and the whole choice agenda but its got sweet FA to do with an argument about re-introducing secondary moderns.

TaIkinPeace · 28/08/2016 16:11

HPFA
My local school is not a church school.
They are a Hampshire comp (they were in place 3 on my form)
The academy trust happen to be evangelical but its not on the admission criteria
what gets my goat is people saying that its OK to choose a grammar or a fee paying but not OK to choose on any other grounds Hmm

HPFA · 28/08/2016 16:13

Oh, FFS! Julia Hartley Brewer has been tweeting that anyone who went to a grammar school isn't allowed to oppose them. Blaming people for their parent's choices is pretty low even by the standards of the pro-grammar lobby. And as for that bit about Olympic swimmers training with average swimmers, I wasn't aware that Olympic swimmers were demanding separate pools so they wouldn't come into contact with the polluting influence of average swimmers.

My DD does recreational gymnastics at a club which also has gymnasts that compete nationally. They have not demanded her removal because her inability to do a backward walkover is somehow hampering their attempts to do a double somersault.

Again, why can't the pro-grammars come up with some better arguments?

TaIkinPeace · 28/08/2016 16:19

Julia Hartley Brewer has been tweeting that anyone who went to a grammar school isn't allowed to oppose them
I'm screwed then, I was GDST

let alone anti grammar friends from Eton, Harrow, Radley, Benenden, Wycombe Avvey, Marlborough, Oundle, Clifton, Charterhouse, PHS, PGS, Dulwich, etc ad nauseam

HPFA · 28/08/2016 16:32

Pro-grammar advocates who use this sports analogy never seem to realise that many top-class sportsmen use the same facilities as the recreational user. Of course they do, you wouldn't build separate running tracks, gymnasiums, swimming pools, or ice rinks just for the very few elite, it would be a nonsensical waste of public money. Much like new grammars, in fact.

sandyholme · 28/08/2016 17:15

To be fair to Julia Hartley Brewer , she was educated at a Comprehensive in Bath and went to Oxford so you could say she should be batting for the pro Comprehensive side !

Angela Raynor i doubt has any 'experience ' knowledge or personal insight in to selective education .

I would be surprised if she actually knows anyone who even took the 11+ such is the paucity of (state) 11+ takers in Tameside and her own limited understanding outside that of a Union rep.

It is possible she did not even know what a grammar school was until she was briefed by the Labour press department .

Two questions i would ask her does she know which state school has the highest results in Greater Manchester (Trafford comes under Manchester) . Is she aware that not one school in Tameside comes anywhere near Trafford's foremost ' Modern' in results , yet she pontificates with the knowledge of someone who has studied a 'press' release for five minutes !

EllyMayClampett · 28/08/2016 17:20

I wouldn't carry any of these analogues too far. They all break down whichever side you are trying to argue for.

TaIkinPeace · 28/08/2016 17:24

I would be surprised if she actually knows anyone who even took the 11+
well yah dahling, I know only a few gels who took the same set of scholarship exams I took

but 40 years on I would expect folks to have grown up and learned from the experience around them year on year and place by place
and to take expert advice

so the fact that la Greening was lucky enough to come to Soton Uni from a comp makes her stronger not weaker

sandyholme · 28/08/2016 17:40

I would say that Justine Greening getting to Southampton University from a Rotherham (Mistakenly said on another thread Doncaster) Comprehensive makes her a stronger individual than any 'public schoolite' .

TaIkinPeace · 28/08/2016 17:43

but sandy she's never sat the 11+ so by your definition she in inherently weak ......
or is north of Watford equivalent to SecMod in your world Hmm

HPFA · 28/08/2016 18:04

Of course Trafford gets higher results than Tameside, its a much wealthier area!! The new secondary moderns in Tameside certainly wouldn't get anything like the results of Wellington.

HPFA · 28/08/2016 18:10

To be fair to Julia Hartley Brewer , she was educated at a Comprehensive in Bath and went to Oxford so you could say she should be batting for the pro Comprehensive side !

Except that we all know that everyone who went to a comp succeeded despite their school, whereas those at a grammar were destined for a career at MacDonald's without their superior education.

This is sarcasm by the way.