Grammar Schools (given green light by Theresa May part 3)

[sandyholme]

Part 3 ... Let the sparring continue..

Affected...

MapleandPear Progress is measured in all subjects from KS2 SATs. (This will change from the SATS this year, but targets will almost certainly be generated from the test scores.) They use the combined fine scores which generates a target grade essentially strong level 5s/6s will generate As across the board, so for a pupil to make expected progress they will have to get an average of an A across their subjects, which might include PE, Art, Music etc. I once confronted an Ofsted HMI who said that KS2 SATs shouldn't be used to create targets in music - I then pointed the judgements of an entire inspection were based on progress from the KS2 Sats, so what did he expect Heads to do. He couldn't answer me. But that is a debate in itself!

Whether more grammars will dilute the frantic tutoring obsession, I don't know?

Tutoring simply doesn't guarantee a place at a grammar. I know plenty of children who were tutored but still failed to pass the 11+.

You can tutor an average ability child, until the cows come home...but, if they're up against high ability kids (who have probably also had some tutoring) the tutored, average kid just isn't going to get in.

There are 10 year olds who can ace a 60 minute NVR paper in less than 30 minutes. And not because they have been tutoted to death - but because they are extremely clever, and yes...might have had 'some' tutoring.

Tutors are not magicians. And they don't have magic wands.

No answers then.
Just a comment that I haven't answered questions.
I have noticed the one that asks me for a link where the Sutton Trust doesn't support grammar schools and I will find it after dinner.
I haven't seen any others but I will answer any that you want to give me.
I would however love an answer to mine.

And, yes I know the arguments about how a good comprehensive can cater for all academic needs, through intensive setting for all subjects - which allows a pupil strong at maths but weak at English to be in a suitable set for each etc. And how this flexibility is so preferable etc.

Except, of course, generally grammar school kids aren't 'weak' in any academic subject. They're pretty damned good at everything they study. No need for them to have flexible setting. No need for them to be able to move up or down in subjects.

So, a grammar school only takes 'all rounders'.
That is a concern....
Good at maths/ not so good English or vice versa.
As well as the social divisive debate re grammars, the above example is a plus for comprehensives in my opinion.

I would love to know what a school is supposed to do with a boy who is exceptional at maths if they don't let him work with those older. What would you do?
I am not talking about the excellent at Maths - DS's friend (in the comp) got one of the top A'level marks in the entire country in his year but he never needed to be in any other than the normal class for his age. He wasn't singled out for master classes in year 5.

People will tell you, PonderingProsecco that no one is brilliant at one subject and poor at another!! ( despite the fact it is common)

prosecco why on Earth would it be a concern? From my experience of grammars the pupils are strong, all rounders in virtually all subjects. With just varying degrees of how good they are, with a grade B seen as being 'weak' in a subject.

Of course it's quite common for someone to be brilliant at one subject and weak in another.

Just that these people probably aren't in a grammar. An average grammar creams off the top 20% and then perhaps has 4-5 sets in Maths. So even if you're in the bottom set for maths at a grammar, you're still very good at maths compared to the vast majority of kids.

Did you all see the article in the Times about Harris Westminster 6th Form (opened Sept 2014)?

About a third of students are entitled to FSM, but it is highly selective. This year's A level results were 12% A, and 42% A/ A grades. Six individuals are off to Oxbridge, about 70% to RG.

Westminster shared its teachers and expertise to get it off the ground. Am I deluded in wishing that more top schools could find a way to spread the magic wider? I don't suppose the fee paying parents could object very hard without compromising their liberal credentials.

"About a third of students are entitled to FSM, but it is highly selective" What GCSEs do you need to get in?

I don't know because I haven't checked the stats. It must be high!

Have looked... minimum is 6Bs.

Ah. I think I might have spotted what the "top school magic" is at Harris Westminster. Entrance is by 6Bs and at least As at the subjects you want to study (although most pupils have qualifications well beyond that) then an entrance exam and an interview.

A praiseworthy plan though? And a kind interviewing style allied to a searching academic conversation is not such a bad way to assess promise and potential that is not predicated on background, is it? Please disagree, but I rather like the idea that the people who run fastest win races. As long as everyone runs barefoot!

Preference to PP students too.

Absolutely.And a fantastic initiative. But (sorry) PP pupils who are capable of, and actually manage to get all As and A*s at GCSE(which is certainly what HW are implying you need) are not really the ones who need the extra boost.

I think the London Excellence Academy in Stratford is another. It's supported by Eton among others.

I would love to know what a school is supposed to do with a boy who is exceptional at maths if they don't let him work with those older. What would you do?

There is no easy answer to this - if they work with the older kids then they will run out of secondary maths well before they finish secondary school, but the advice from Oxbridge was to not teach them university maths because they'd be bored at uni((!)
The UKMT have mentoring programmes for bright young mathematicians, a young student can be mentored by a maths undergraduate (via email) through monthly problem sets - the aim is to recruit for the International Maths Olympiad team.

The Sutton Trust on grammar schools It certainly doesn't say lets have more- it points out the problems, quite specifically.
I suggest that people follow The Sutton Trust on Twitter- they retweet articles that I have been told are just opinion. To me a retweet is fine because you agree. Retweets that you disagree with come with a quote saying how wrong they are.

Bertrand, I am sure those students accepted by HW would probably do okay anywhere; they would have done at DS's lacklustre rural comprehensive. What they would probably have missed out on is the impetus to do so, and the reassurance/encouragement that they should be applying to the top tier of the RG, because there is a bit of blinkered thinking in that one school, that suggests... you don't want to move out of your comfort zone, do you really? Sadly in our area, the teachers think of success in Cornwall, not California!

Unfortunately I moved away before the talented mathematician had got beyond ALevel but I think you can be sure that he had appropriate teaching. A child who is signed out as exceptional in year 5 is hardly going to be in a comprehensive that doesn't get the very best advice going!!
Ridiculous to think they just let him do ALevel and let him get bored! His parents chose the school in the first place because they knew what they were doing.

Chatting to a friend this evening who teaches in a grammar school. We are both teachers but I have only taught in a standard state school. I am instinctively against more grammar schools because of the thought of what stripping out the top kids in the large comprehensive I taught in, would do to the general feel of the school. The aspirations of the general school body, the standard of teaching, the knock on effects on staffing if the government continues down the payment by results model- I think there could be a cascade of unfortunate consequences. The school I was in set from year 7 and we catered for the kids infront of us, and the brightest kids got the grades. My friend feels trapped in her school ( which has its own issues including not differentiating properly for the actually quite wide range that get in) because the non grammar schools local to her are seen as 'sink' schools which are struggling and under huge scrutiny. She is worried about getting her child through the 11+ this year because despite the fact they are able enough to pass they are also already very anxious about the test and may under- perform. Also locally they are piloting a different test which is supposed to be less susceptible to tutured kids getting in above those with more natural ability. This means no one knows quite what is coming and her genuine fear of this test defining her child's chances made me so grateful to be in an area where this doesn't happen.

Singled not signed