Grammar Schools (given green light by Theresa May part 3)

[sandyholme]

Part 3 ... Let the sparring continue..

It really irritates me to hear parents say "my child has been written off at 10/11". Just because they aren't clever enough to get into the school that they have decided is the be all and end all of schools.

Real gifted children shouldn't be punished because helicopter parents scream loudest.

Grammar schools what a great idea for social mobility. So let's give the deprived kids a chance. If you live in a run down area of the country and your postcode reflects that you should be given priority over a child who lives in a leafy suburb. The thing we must avoid with grammar schools is allowing the rich to get a free education (tutoring) to the disadvantage of the poor. In fact those who are from richer postcodes should pay a fee so that bursaries can be given to the poor to buy uniform. In this way the really bright kids from disadvantaged backgrounds can make it. I hope we never get the Tiffin model where the rich kids get tutored ....

I have admitted that I moved to get a good comprehensive. I think that post code is acknowledged by everyone.
What irritates me is that grammar school pupil parents saying that it doesn't apply to them. They move to grammar school areas -fact. The grammar school puts up prices - fact ( I should know- I sold one)
We were told yesterday that grammar schools don't have catchment areas - very odd that I can actually Google the catchment area maps this morning!
Admittedly they don't if they are a super selective- but I have been shouted down in the two occasions that I have suggested they are a good thing. I did come across a big protest in a local paper only last year from Reading parents who wanted more pupils from Reading because they thought it unfair that they were taking places when they lived in Slough, Oxford etc.
It struck me, looking at all the admission policies, that they were very intimidating to those not confident in playing the system.

The other thing that struck me on my Googling was that it was not a case of not being clever enough at 10/11yrs the marks to get in differ from year to year. I would just hope that your child wasn't born in a 'bulge' year because a mark that would have comfortably got them a place the year before will relegate them to a sec mod.
I would suggest that any new grammars are mixed and they let them get top heavy with girls. If they have single sex I can see that someone will take up a legal challenge asking why their DD is in a sec mod but the boy next door is in a grammar when he had less marks.

People forget, or possibly don't know, that lots of families were divided with siblings in each school and one if the reasons for ending the system was that it was very unpopular.
I lived in a very nice commuter village and we had a house around a very pleasant green ( same design of house and all professional families)
I can still remember who lived where and these are the results in families.
Pass, pass
Pass, pass, pass,
Fail,
Pass, fail,
Pass
Fail,
Fail, fail, pass
Fail, fail
Pass, pass,
Pass, fail,
Pass, pass
Fail, pass
Luckily, being a 'nice' area we got a 'nice' secondary modern. Some parents of those who failed opted out and went private- especially if the only had the one child or the eldest passed and the youngest failed.
It is hardly a vote winner with 75% of parents!

And mathsmum it wouldn't irritate you if you were the child who was written off at 11yrs of age! One day you can happily say that you want to be a doctor - or anything you like - and the next day people say 'can you still do that?' You get fed up of explaining 'yes, I can and have to do x, y and z' and you stick with 'I haven't decided yet'. You are 11yrs old and people think that you can never be a doctor!!!

"It really irritates me to hear parents say "my child has been written off at 10/11". Just because they aren't clever enough to get into the school that they have decided is the be all and end all of schools.

Real gifted children shouldn't be punished because helicopter parents scream loudest."

Gosh. You've achieved the impossible- I am struck dumb. And somebody once described my ds and his secondary modern peers as "the dregs"- even that didn't shut me up. But this has. All I can say is that it should be C&P on a regular basis just to remind those of us who believe in fairness in education what we're up against.

Real gifted children shouldn't be punished because helicopter parents scream loudest.

I didn't quite understand that statement. Helicopter parents and the intense tutoring going on suggest that they are the ones screaming loudest, and some really gifted children are therefore the ones being punished if they don't have parents who can organise this.

They move to grammar school areas -fact. The grammar school puts up prices - fact ( I should know- I sold one)

We moved to be near family when DD1 was 18 months old and had no idea what the primary schools were like in the area, let alone secondary schools.

Bertrand. You are being dramatic , nobody singled out your DS personally.

I can remember the post where Sec Mod kids were referred to as the dregs. If you had a child in a Sec Mod, it would be difficult not to take it personally.

I do think there is a place for schools that are highly academic and highly structured, the way we imagine an archetypical grammar school to be. Some children thrive in these environments, and they don't cost anymore than comps do. It is a matter of style and ideology not costs.

The only real problem or objection that I can see is at the margins. People who want this for their children, but whose children will not or cannot pass an 11+ are where the angst lies. It's the fear of missing out; the upset of having siblings in different schools.

Could this problem not be solved in two ways:

1. Increase the provision of grammar schools so spaces aren't so constrained. After all, the more children that benefit from a rigorous education that their parents are satisfied with, the better.
2. Allow admission by parental choice. No test. Parents tend to know their own children better than anyone else and if they have a good knowledge of the school they are the best people to match the child to the school.
3. Maintain high standards by allowing children to "flunk-out" after the first two years if they are not able to handle the work load and pace.

Three ways, not two. Obviously.

Nobody is written off at '11' in any school .

I find it very amusing when i meet people who are 30 or 40 harking on about how failing the 11+ has wrecked their lives !

There are convinced that a 'minor' exam taken at the age of 11 as prevented them from doing anything aged 40 !

I agree with 'Maths' passing or failing the 11+ in the grand scheme of things is not that important.

It is made so by the reaction of posters like Bertrand arguing 'stupidly' that someones life prospects have been dealt a fatal blow at 11 years of age!

I

They are convinced ..

No one is written off at 11? A number of posters here are arguing that most Comprehensives are crap, and therefore we must have grammars, implying that whole swathes of children are being written off.

Well that is where you have missed out MapleandPear unless you were lucky. Perhaps you didn't realise that you need a house in a good school area or that they cost more in a good catchment area.
I certainly looked at the local primary when we bought a house when DS was a mere 'bump'.
I can certainly remember the post about the 'dregs' and have certainly heard the term 'secondary modern yobs' - not something you get about grammar school pupils - even when badly behaved.
I remember a post, possibly from BR , where a sec mod boy got teased because he turned up at a grammar school meeting about Oxbridge entry (having been invited) and teased by boys who seemed to have no idea that although he had failed a test at 10yrs of age by 15yrs he was well in advance of most of them.
I remember another post from Kent where the grammar school get a carol service in the cathedral every yr with the important people of the city. Not a mix of schools, not taking it in turns with sec mods but EVERY year. Why?

I expect there area posters on here who would privately think that a sec mod child has no chance of a top university.

Grammar school parents play the system as much as comprehensive parents. I am of the age where friends are becoming grandparents. Those who have children in good jobs in London ( from comprehensive schools) are moving out before their children turn 4yrs. Their London house price money buys them something far superior outside the city. Prices will be much higher with a good comp or a grammar school, but very affordable for someone from London. They are not moving out to an area with poor schools!
My DH commuted into London for 20 years. It is what people do for schools and house prices. (Grammar school parents too)

Are- not area.

Ah, but you have missed the point Peregrina - those are 'other people's children' !

You obviously didn't fail sandyholme if you are 'amused' by people being upset about failing and think it a 'minor inconvenience'. I am upset 50+ years on- at the sheer unfairness of it. Ultimately it didn't matter but it was a very big handicap and was completely unnecessary. If I knew that I wanted A levels and further education what was the sense of putting me in a school that didn't even do O'levels? Moving schools as a teenager is not a nice experience, and expensive to have 3 secondary schools.
I am certainly not going to vote for a government that intends to give a superior education to some poster's children on here and stick the 75% of 'other people's children' in a sec mod. If a school is not good enough for your child it certainly isn't good enough for anyone else's child!

I certainly do not think a non grammar school pupil is not capable of reaching a top University.

Regarding the teasing of a student attending an Oxbridge talk it is 'boys' banter and should not be taken to heart .

I can't think of anything more boring for 14/15 year olds than standing singing carols for two hours listening to boring local 'no marks' waffle on !

If people are so adamant that there is no "writing off" at 10 why are they so utterly desperate for their child to go to grammar school?

I don't actually think that going to secondary modern school means you are "written off". I do however think that is how society sees you, and it makes it very difficult to fight the stigma.

They don't give the best education. They merely send 75% to a school where they get to a ceiling and can't rise above it because they are the top set and they need to be in with the grammar school set.

I fail to see why my children can't be in the same school because a school,unknown to me but with a good Ofsted ,has children who are bored.

Funny how it's boy's banter when it's grammar school kids doing it ti secondary modern kids, and bullying if it's the other way round!