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Education

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Grammar Schools (given green light by Theresa May part 3)

692 replies

sandyholme · 17/08/2016 12:20

Part 3 ... Let the sparring continue..

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2StripedSocks · 21/08/2016 09:38

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HPFA · 21/08/2016 09:52

Why are we even arguing about the logistics of getting kids into grammars?

Every statistical comparison you can make shows that kids in secondary moderns will generally do worse than in comps. Not every child in every SM obviously, but overall the figures are clear. And as those kids are the majority that really should be the end of the argument. Unless we're talking about a very few highly selective schools on the lines of the Tiffins.

Now if we all want to start a new discussion on how we can improve provision for the highly able in comps (the Ofsted report on this is a good start) that might actually lead to something productive.

2StripedSocks · 21/08/2016 09:54

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BertrandRussell · 21/08/2016 09:55

"Pretty sure any new grammars would be the same."

Well if they don't have catchments, how are they going to be any benefit at all to the kids in the local area?

2StripedSocks · 21/08/2016 09:55

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2StripedSocks · 21/08/2016 09:56

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BertrandRussell · 21/08/2016 10:00

So how are you so sure they won't have catchments? Hmm

sandyholme · 21/08/2016 10:01

£10000 pounds a year in 'Oldham' is a fortune to most families living there (whatever the housing prices are ) Most families who have £10000 pounds a year 'spare' are looking to exodus South ! .

The surrounding area and its educational achievement I.E Ashton -Under- Lyne is shown up by the election of the 'Shadow Education' Secretary ! . An education secretary who does not even have 'GCSEs ' and spent most of the time ' Wagging' .

She is most likely to say : ' I dunn'o what mi school waz ' Whatz a Granma'z School !. Iz that the school mi gran went to.

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2StripedSocks · 21/08/2016 10:03

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BertrandRussell · 21/08/2016 10:09

"How are you sure they will?"

I'm not. But I didn't make an "I'm pretty sure" statement.

2StripedSocks · 21/08/2016 10:12

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EddieStobbart · 21/08/2016 10:14

She is most likely to say : ' I dunn'o what mi school waz ' Whatz a Granma'z School !. Iz that the school mi gran went to.

No, she really isn't.

2StripedSocks · 21/08/2016 10:16

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noblegiraffe · 21/08/2016 10:37

Actually here is what Angela Rayner, Shadow Education Secretary, wrote about grammars:

"They entrench division and separate out children at an early age.

The evidence shows that grammar schools overwhelmingly benefit those from more affluent backgrounds. This has absolutely nothing to do with academic ability and everything to do with background and wealth.

Grammar schools are about stigmatising children, not on the grounds of their ability, but on their background.

Sowing division like this, and contributing to a system that fails to promote social mobility and help those from low and middle income backgrounds, is about as far from One Nation as it gets.

For Theresa May to pose as a One Nation Tory, and then propose a policy that will divide our children into successes and failures at the age of eleven, really takes some nerve.

The Prime Minister cannot get away with this.

David Cameron said that those in his party who wanted more grammars were "splashing about in the shallow end of the education debate."

He was right. We need to focus on helping EVERY child to get a world-class education in EVERY school in this country. We must ensure that every single child can go as far as their ability and their aspirations will take them.

That's what a One Nation education policy should be about.

To focus instead on opening new grammar schools, to splash about in the shallow end, is to turn your back on the majority of children in this country.

It is a diversion from the real issues that face our children.

And it is bred from ideology, not the best interests of our children.

It means ignoring the fact that those from less affluent backgrounds have the ability, but do not have access to the resources, that would tilt selection in their favour.

It means ignoring children who develop later in life, but are no less able than their peers.

It means stigmatising our children as "failures".

Time and again grammar schools have failed our young people. From admissions to outcomes, those from the least advantaged backgrounds benefit the least from grammar schools, while the most affluent benefit the most.

That's why Tony Blair stopped the expansion of grammar schools. That's why Labour believes in doing all we can to help every single child in this country, whatever their background, to succeed.

That's what it means to believe in aspiration, and to promote social mobility.

Bringing back grammar schools is turning back the clock to a mythical golden age, to a romantic view of the past in which grammar schools were the great engines of post-war social mobility.

Even when the evidence says different.

Theresa May, and her new Education Secretary Justine Greening, say they will place social mobility at the heart of everything they do. Introducing grammar schools does the exact opposite.

I hope wiser counsels will prevail in today's Tory Party.

And that genuine One Nation Tories will pursue a One Nation education policy, working to improve opportunities and outcomes for EVERY child."

Clavinova · 21/08/2016 10:42

I don't think anyone is expecting a new grammar school in every town.

Any new grammar schools would have to have a fairly large catchment area or they won't be able to attract enough high ability pupils to attend them. Some of the grammar schools in the more isolated/deprived parts of Kent and Lincolnshire are admitting 20-30% of pupils who haven't achieved Level 5 at KS2. Perhaps the number of grammar schools in Kent and Lincolnshire should be reduced, 10% of admissions be guaranteed for pupils on fsm although income support might be a better measure (I wouldn't go any higher than 10% in deprived areas because the displaced pupils might actually be on very low incomes) with transport to the grammar schools for those on low incomes paid for by the council.

I would open 20-30 new grammar schools across the country though in areas with a relatively high population.

sandyholme · 21/08/2016 10:47

Yeah. I bet she wrote that herself , rather than read the official statement compiled by 'Seamus Milne ' !

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Clavinova · 21/08/2016 10:52

Noble
Anti-grammar doesn't mean pro-crap comprehensive

What's the definition of a crap comprehensive?
It seems to me that most people on this thread would take positive action to avoid sending their children to a comprehensive school with less than 70% A* - C (me included). Are we saying then that over half the schools in this country are crap?

sandyholme · 21/08/2016 10:59

I would open 60-70 more grammar schools. Every child should be able to access a grammar school.

And you know so 'what' if there are not many FSM children educated in grammar schools ( that is not the maginot line indicating where 'affluence' and poverty begins and ends).

It will also be a huge vote winner , despite what Angela Raynor or Cameron ( Samantha is relieved he stood down, Nancy can now do her CE and move to Marlborough ) may believe.

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CookieDoughKid · 21/08/2016 11:05

Well yes. We must be doing something pretty badly if kids can't get a C grade in GCSE Maths and English. IMO I think more support is needed at Primary school. Because you're path is set by the time you reach secondary unless you have the resources and support to pull you up a grade or 2.

noblegiraffe · 21/08/2016 11:07

What's the definition of a crap comprehensive?

I don't think headline figures can be used to decide whether a school is crap or not. If a school with a challenging intake of low achievers got 60% then that would certainly not be crap. If a school like Dame Alice Owens got 70% with their cushy part-selective intake then that would be crap.

A school has just joined my school's MAT where only 50% of the kids make the expected progress in maths. The MAT is now swinging into action sharing resources, schemes of work, training etc so hopefully that will improve.

CookieDoughKid · 21/08/2016 11:08

I don't understand why having the bright cohort at a comp makes it a better school for the lower and middle cohort. How is it better? The lower and middle cohort are what they are. And we need to focus appropriately for each cohort. We shouldn't blame a school not getting exam passes on the bright cohort being siphoned off. That's excuses in my book.

CookieDoughKid · 21/08/2016 11:09

Exactly my point noble.

Clavinova · 21/08/2016 11:15

It's obvious to me why there's such a disparity in the GCSE results of schools in Oldham and I don't think it's got anything to do with the Independent school.

Two of the top performing secondary schools in Oldham have highly selective faith (Christian) admissions criteria: The Blue Coat CofE School and The Crompton House CofE Academy.

From the easier to read 2014 tables:

The Blue Coat (74% A* - C) had a fsm rate of 8.2% and English as a second language rate of 3.6%.

Crompton House (76% A* - C) fsm rate 4.4%, EAL less than 1%.

The two worst performing schools in Oldham have a large proportion of pupils on fsm and/or Pakistani/Bangladeshi pupils:

Waterhead Academy (33% A* - C) fsm 31.8%, EAL 48.3%

Oasis Academy (37% A* - C) fsm 41.2% EAL 19.1%

Parents at the Church of England schools might not want a grammar school.

Clavinova · 21/08/2016 11:23

Surely any school is crap if you take steps to avoid sending your own child there no matter how much it's improving.

noblegiraffe · 21/08/2016 11:26

No, it might be perceived as crap for completely wrong reasons.

I have a friend who said certain (racist) parents would avoid his school because it had a lot of recent immigrants from outside Europe. He said it was stupid because those kids were polite, enthusiastic, hardworking and a joy to teach.