Grammar Schools (given green light by Theresa May part 3)

[sandyholme]

Part 3 ... Let the sparring continue..

For the attention of Bertrand !

mascallsacademy.org.uk/

Paddock Wood is a fully Comprehensive area and despite being only 5 miles or so from Tunbridge Wells children from the Paddock Wood are discriminated against when trying to gain access to the Tunbridge/Tonbridge grammar schools.

She could of course have moved to( Alcatraz) otherwise known as the 'Island' and enrolled her DC in to Minster school . A true Comprehensive school as it represents the whole ability range of the island !

What Bertrand actually means is there are no high performance Comprehensives in Kent and that is a different question as mentioned earlier.

Fresh sending 75% of pupils to a secondary modern isn't going to move us up the rankings.

However, perhaps if a damn sight more current comprehensives pulled their socks up and delivered more effective teaching then we might move up the rankings.

What are you saying about Mascall's Academy?
Confused whether you have a problem with it or not.

Oh, stop talking rubbish, sandyholme.

Not 20 years ago, but more than 10. Certainly not in the top 20% at the time. One of the schools was one which some parents used to reject out of hand and still do, but it's always best to go and look at the school and see what it actually does, not what its reputation is, which can be hopelessly prejudiced.

The same went for primary schools too. We moved one child to a school which traditionally had a poor reputation, but again, when you visited and saw what they were actually doing it was a different matter. Meanwhile one of the popular primaries was quietly sliding into special measures.

Bertrand I thought Peregrina and Pondering were being somewhat evasive.

What I mean Bertrand is that you live in a semi-rural area with some deprivation - the grammar school draws in some mc pupils (and teachers) from further away - why do you assume that the grammar school and the secondary modern would be replaced with two equally good comprehensive schools? You might be in the catchment of a not-so-good comprehensive. There are similar areas outside Kent (e.g. East Anglia) with some very mediocre comprehensive schools.

Pondering Prosecco bottom 10 five years ago is not particularly up-to-date information. Hopefully you won't regret your choice and your ds agrees with you.

Peregrina I think we need a few more recent experiences - no one with a child currently in or recently left a comprehensive school has replied yet.

Yes they do bert. Because when it comes to the unfairness of academic selection, people are very quick to point out the attempts to level the field aren't good enough. And anyone who wants to benefit by the unfairness is selfish etc. But when it comes to the inequality of comprehensive provision, some airy fairy acknowledgement it should improve is deemed to be enough, and those who miss out should put up and shut up in the meantime.

You didn't have a sm as first choice for your ds, same as many other anti grammar parents. I can fully understand why, and wouldn't criticise you or anyone else for that, or expect you to sacrifice your child for your principles. But when I or anyone else says that we don't want that for our dc, it becomes 'oh but think of the poor deprived low achievers, you're being selfish, you should be willing to put principles above your child etc etc'.

Been off the thread for a while so may be misunderstanding things but are we anti-grammars now supposed to be hypocrites if we don't deliberately send our children to the worst-performing comps in our counties?

I would imagine that quite a few stalwart defenders of selection in Bucks have sent their child over the border to Oxfordshire and Maidenhead comps once their own child has "passed" for the secondary modern. What about people sending their kids to Piper's Corner (private) rather than a secondary mod?

I really don't think this debate over people's individual choices is very helpful

some airy fairy acknowledgement it should improve is deemed to be enough,

I think you have a fair point here Lurked. Because believers in comprehensive school are always on the defensive we can be slow to acknowledge that there are areas where provision is not good. Maybe we need separate thread to actually discuss improving comprehensive provision properly without it always turning into comprehensive v grammar.

Just want to say I used to live in a grammar school area. Either my dcs were lucky enough to get an offer from a good comp from outside the catchment or a grammar school we would still have to budget £800 bus fees per year per child. I have two kids so it would cost us £1600 @ year if we didn't move house. The comp now my kids go to is a good comp but not a top comp but that's all we can afford. My maths isn't v good I think bus fees for 5 yrs up GCSEs for two kids would be £8000 + £3200 for 2 yrs A levels?!!
Many oaps don't or cannot use their free bus passes anyway so why not let the school and college kids have them?!

hpfa I think the two are interlinked. If you ignore the tiny minority of parents who want grammars purely because they are scared their darling children might catch 'the chav' in a genuine social/ ability mixed comprehensive, then most grammar supporters only favour them because the comprehensive system isn't working properly for all dc. I think if we did really improve all comprehensives, for all children, then nobody would have a legitimate reason to want a grammar.

I don't think opening a grammar in my area is the best or only solution. But the only other improvements are nothing but idle talk, so given the choice between nothing, and a grammar, I'd currently come down firmly in favour of the latter. Even though I'd prefer the comprehensive provision to be equally good for all dc.

As grammar schools have been shown to heighten social inequality I can't support them as a response to the problems in the school system. My DCs catchment school has results running at half the national average (Scotland). However, the recently appointed head has an excellent reputation and the small class sizes (school running at half capacity) is pulling people in. I went to an open day recently and was very impressed with the enthusiasm of the teachers and the teaching approaches they have been trialling. There was a fantastic air of positivity and optimism.

HPFA - as your child does attend a top 5 comprehensive school how can you speak on behalf of the parents of children who don't?

EddieStobbart Will your dc be attending their catchment school?

Has HPFA said which school her child goes to?

So the only people allowed to have opinions on grammars are a narrow group of people who are in favour of grammars?

No, but a majority of parents with children not in the top comprehensive schools might actually want the return of grammar schools or at least some grammar schools in certain areas if they cannot access the better comps - I would open a grammar school in Southampton for example.

No, but a majority of parents with children not in the top comprehensive schools might actually want the return of grammar schools

But that would be silly because the majority of those parents would not get their children into the grammar school.

I think you mean that some parents who reckon their kids have a decent shot at getting their kids into a grammar school would want the return of grammar schools.

How do you know how the parents of middle ability dc will vote if their dc are attending not-so good comprehensive schools? A majority vote in favour of a grammar school doesn't have to be by much as we've seen in the EU referendum.

Because they don't want to see any good teachers from their current school stolen by a grammar opening up next door?

And this isn't a referendum.

noble I totally agree with your post upthread. You are exactly the calibre of teacher that I would want to teach DD2. You are exactly the calibre she needs.

She is exceptionally good at maths. So she needs a specialist teacher like you. In just the same way that a child at the other end of the academic spectrum needs a specialist teacher, too.

A diversion from the referendum result.....

There seems to be a rather bizaare interest in the school my child goes to. Why anyone is interested in the choices of a complete stranger I have no idea but just in case:

She attends an all girls school in the town next to the one we live. It is a superb school (now outstanding Ofsted but not when we chose it). Its results were slightly higher than the schools in our town but given its all girls advantage not hugely so and this might well not be the case in five years time. We chose it because a) my daughter wanted to go there and b) I feel our town has one too many schools. Three very small schools with small sites and cramped facilities. I feel that two of them should merge but this was hardly going to happen any time soon, if it ever does.

I accept there is an argument in favour of having allocated admissions, however that hardly seemed a good reason to tell my DD why she could not go to her preferred school. I have not ever argued for allocated admissions on Mumsnet so it's irrelevant here

If results had been all important to us there are nearby schools getting better results which I suppose we could have moved house to get into if we'd wanted to.

I don't for the life of me see why this is relevant to a debate about whether the interests of our children would be best served by a return to secondary moderns. But I suppose that anything to divert from the overwhelming evidence that they would not is good enough for the pro-grammar lobby.

Seems posters are insistent on deliberately conflating good teachers with teachers that have high level knowledge of their subject, just so they can claim grammars will take all the 'good' teachers. They are just not the same thing.

Also a lot of garbage about secondary moderns because I have heard no news that anyone is planning on creating more of them.

I have not seen any studies on this thread comparing what happens to social mobility when a grammar replaces a school with a million pound catchment. Currently poorer gifted pupils have zero chances of getting into them, at least with grammars they would have a working chance.

Why do so many posters passively accept selection by income but selection by ability is morally repugnant. Isn't that rich privilege asserting itself?

if we did really improve all comprehensives, for all children, then nobody would have a legitimate reason to want a grammar I agree but governments have been trying to do that for decades and not managed it.

I have not heard anyone give a solution to how a size limited city comprehensive, that just doesn't have many high ability pupils, can run classes for them that gives an education equal to their level?.

So far some level of selection seems to be the only solution.

I actually came on to post an interesting article from the TES

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-views/grammar-schools-wont-make-it-happen-more-able-says-former-st-pauls