Theresa May to end ban on grammar schools

[noblegiraffe]

Theresa May to end ban on grammar schools, reports the Telegraph.

This is not a policy announcement, rather a testing of the waters, I suspect.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/06/theresa-may-to-end-ban-on-new-grammar-schools/

sandy

I've been reading these education threads for too long now
I have never seen this before.
I'm still trying to imagine the environment. Are there many of these schools.
Isn't it confusing for parents and children.

gillybeanz Isn't it confusing for parents and children.

No, I didn't find it confusing nor did my DC1.

Ok i could name the two most successful non selective schools that are located in grammar areas ! Those two schools one in the north the other in the south are well known on here.

However, people keep saying Kent and (Secondary Moderns) go together like fish and chips.

This means they denigrate for instance Hillview School in Tonbridge .This is a brilliant arts performing school offering a vocational pathway together with a traditional academic GCSE/A level curriculum.

sandyholme so which is the equivalent school for boys?

sandyholme Hillview is a selective school - "10% of places (20) will be allocated on the basis of aptitude in the Performing Arts disciplines of Dance, Drama or Music"

I wonder how we would fair if we kept children back a year or two - so leave for secondary when they reach X target?

Would that makes kids work harder? Would a child in a bright cohort deliberately fail to pass either hope of grammar the following year?

If they as tutored to test as much as is to be believed - then where's their childhood gone?

I would rather employ an averaged well rounded well mannered young person that an A* child with no common sense - seems we are putting too much on grades we don't really believe in

So everyone just shifts up a notch in terms of schooling - so what happens to the school and the children at the bottom of this pyramid? Not much presumably. So no imorovement for them.

GILLY. It appears we have 3 types of selective schools grammar , comprehensives and we also have 'Selective modern schools'... !

Mum agreed , sadly there is no Hillview equivalent for boys in the area though boys are admitted to the 6th form of Hillview..

bert when have I ever said all comprehensives were crap? Why would I? Again you miss my point, some comprehensives, in areas without grammars, are secondary moderns in all but name. Do you think a child at one feels any less of a failure, or is failed any less, just because they didn't sit an exam for it? Does failing deprived kids only matter when some mc kids end up at the same school because they didn't pass the exam? Whereas if you fail those same deprived kids it's just an unfortunate minor issue if you select on postcode so the mc kids get good schools?

mum same could be said of the comprehensive system, people should only be declaring it fairer (in the current form) if they are willing to send their kids to the worst ones.

Lurkedforever1 people should only be declaring it fairer (in the current form) if they are willing to send their kids to the worst ones.

So which Grammar Schools do your DCs got to then?

Undoubtedly some Comprehensives with skewed intakes are virtual Secondary Moderns. Does it make a difference that the pupils didn't sit an exam? Yes, I think so. I have friends, now in their sixties, who failed their 11+. They have more than made up for this in their adult life, but yes, the feeling of being told at 11 that they were second best remains with them. Who knows if they had been able to access a better education, whether they would have achieved more? The people I am thinking of, incidentally, all went to the better Sec Mods.

A little bit like your driving test - no matter how good a driver you eventually become, if you failed your test the first time, that remains a fact.

We all have differing views of what 'worse' schools are.
Parents can be narrow in focus- eg, worse because children less advantaged and their kids may catch poor.
Worse because bottom line looks lower results wise when an advantaged intake may have better en masse attainment. Progress from starting points overlooked. SEN provision fudged over.
Narrow, narrow.....
Grammar schools? Blatant selection and stealthy [expensive school trips, uniform etc at more 'advantaged' comps]. Oh so depressing.

BTW I did send my children to Comprehensives, of only so-so reputation and they have done well.

Mine doesn't. She's on a combination of bursary and scholarship at an independent. Which whilst great for her, is an even longer shot than a grammar place for most people with crap comprehensives. And many of her friends, class mates, local children, those I know through my work are all stuck at crap schools in a supposedly fair comprehensive system.

People wouldn't have issues with comps if it wasn't for the fact that generally, the lower attaining kids are poorly behaved and teachers spend way too much time on behaviour control. Can we put the troubled kids in a separate school??

I'm all for comps if they stream all the academic subjects. I see nothing wrong with kids of all abilities attending the same school - just not taught at the same time. I'd have the consistently poorly behaved kids with no work ethic go to a different school entirely and not be allowed back until they can prove themselves. I don't understand why we must house them in a normal comp setting.

My local outstanding ofsted comp has something like 8% absence as they take a zero tolerance approach on poor behaviour. They do fixed term exclusions. This was picked up by Ofsted as something they need to improve. I think that's ridiculous. The school is there to teach and not to tolerate poor behaviour. I know as a parent, this is the one thing we fear the most. Kids that disrupt our children's education. And which is why so many pay for education. Fix that, and we fix alot of grammar vs comp debates.

Sorry - this is way over simplistic and unrealistic I know!! I don't work in education. I work for a billion$ corporate company in the city so perhaps that says a lot about me!!

Lurkedforever1 Mon 08-Aug-16 23:38:46 Mine doesn't. She's on a combination of bursary and scholarship at an independent.

Oh I see, so I have to put my DCs in the worst comps. in the Country in order to say whether I think the comp. education system is fairer. However, you don't even have your DC in state education but can express an opinion.

And many of her friends, class mates, local children, those I know through my work are all stuck at crap schools in a supposedly fair comprehensive system.

What makes you so sure that your DCs friends, class mates, local children & those you know through your work would not still be stuck in crap schools with a multi-tier Grammar system?

I welcome TM's decision to end this ban and I hope it improves educational acheivement in England and Wales. I live in NI, a wholly selective system (despite the best efforts of our disgraceful politicians). Around 40% of children attend grammar schools. Both grammar and non grammar pupils do well wrt results so we have a lot of choice.

It works well for us, I hope it does for you too. Unfortunately it will not rid you of sanctimonious parents who become very vocally anti-grammar when one of their DC fails to get a place.

Indeed that demographic may rise.

Can we put the troubled kids in a separate school??

Yes, they're called Pupil Referral Units and I believe lots are closing down due to budget cuts.

One of the problems with putting troubled kids in a separate school is that that pretty much guarantees them poor qualifications (only about 1% of kids in PRUs get 5 A*-C inc maths and English) and puts them on a path more likely to end in prison. Some schools will do everything they can to avoid writing off a pupil like this and will try their best to solve the problem in-house.

I am anti grammar and my child would quite likely get a place.
He is going to his local comprehensive with high number of disadvantaged kids, low very able section but an absolute belief from leadership that there should be high aspirations for all.
The school have a high hill to climb to convince the generally middle classes it is a good school [ofsted convinced but entrenched historic view and plain snobbery it seems in community].
Does this make it a bad school? A crap school?
I think not. If I have got it wrong, we will rethink as a family.
Grammars in our area would be terrible for this school and its journey of improvement in results and reputation.

This was picked up by Ofsted as something they need to improve. I think that's ridiculous.

Yeah, Cookie Dough, I thought this was ridiculous too! My feeling from watching all those "Educating...." programmes is that there's a difference between children who genuinely need help to manage their behaviour and are really trying and those who are just determined to push it to the limit. I know that's very unscientific and sounds horribly Daily Mail but that's the vibe I kept getting.

Internal exclusion often results in huge disruption for everyone.

I visit lots and lots of schools and am in contact with many more and the number one complaint by the students ( in terms of obstacles to academic success) is disruption by other pupils.

DioneTheDiabolist Both grammar and non grammar pupils do well wrt results so we have a lot of choice.

www.education.gg/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=97491&p=0

mum I don't expect you, or anyone else to seek out bad schools. I'm saying they exist just as much in fully comprehensive areas. It's very easy to think the system is fair, when your own situation means your dc won't end up in the bad ones. My point remains the same, instead of people being outraged at the idea of grammar schools, it needs to be admitted the current alternative is equally unfair.

Actually if you put a grammar round here I can think of a handful that it would make a difference to. Overall it would be roughly the same though. And of course I can express an opinion on my local schools.

peregrina I disagree. School allocation day might be worse for those selecting by exam. But 5yrs, 10years, 30years down the line, knowing that your school limited your chances, purely because it was assumed your social status meant you didn't deserve a decent education is just as damaging.

Re pru's and badly behaved dc, I would say that round here most are the result of inadequate Sen support, and bad school management. It's semi rural deprivation here, so admittedly different to an area with generations of social problems. But it's fair to say that numerous kids who have issues at one particular school do perfectly fine at other local schools, even one that has almost identical intake. It also doesn't help that with ss being so limited, deprived dc generally end up in mainstream unless their parents are capable of fighting the system. Or they get managed out and someone helps the parent fight for a ss.

Lurkedforever1 Tue 09-Aug-16 07:58:26 mum I don't expect you, or anyone else to seek out bad schools.

However, you have chosen to ignore the fact that my opinion is based on close family who have chosen to use those "bad" schools. In one of those cases they did have the choice of Grammar, selective or crap comp. and they chose the crap comp. (actually they chose quality of life when they moved there).