Theresa May to end ban on grammar schools

[noblegiraffe]

Theresa May to end ban on grammar schools, reports the Telegraph.

This is not a policy announcement, rather a testing of the waters, I suspect.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/06/theresa-may-to-end-ban-on-new-grammar-schools/

Just as an aside I think it very unwise for teachers to predict 9s.

They're unlikely to correlate to top of A*s in some subjects because the course is more rigorous, there are no CAs and there are in all likelihood going to be caps.

Frankly teachers simply do not know how this is going to pan out.

noble giraffe and teacherwith2kids what are the 5 A -C GCSE pass rates inc English and Maths at your schools? I'd guess you are not in one of the schools near me with the 35% rate.

I cannot see how the most able is being catered to when there is only one A grade child in english in the whole school year. The children with the old level 5s and 6s just do not usually go to the non denominational comprehensives around here. The 2 nearest schools to our old catchment comp had 2014 KS2 sats of level 4 just under 60% and level 5 5%.

Lurkedforever1 sums up exactly what happens in deprived towns. The kids with advantages (and being Christian is the main one, parent willing to pay £500 bus fare another) get a good comprehensive despite living in the deprived town.

". If you wish to sit on a small throne in Kent generalizing from a small parochial particular then that's entirely up to you. Your mind seems extremely closed.".

I don't. I would love you to give me an example of a grammar school that is increasing it's number of disadvantaged pupils. You say it's happening so it would be really easy to post a couple of names. You must be basing your assertions on something!

Your mind seems extremely closed

I'm sure Bertrand can defend herself but having been on opposite sides in another debate she(??) is a formidable but very fair debater. Definitely makes life easier to be on the same side though.

goodbye I'm not sure why it's the job of those who oppose selection in principle to help them justify their existence. It wouldn't alter my opposition to them if they took in a few more disadvantaged children because I think academic selection is inherently wrong.

Peregrina Do you live near me? The fact you were referencing South Oxfordshire schools...

I cannot see how the most able is being catered to when there is only one A grade child in english in the whole school year.

No, that would be very difficult. However, schools where you have a lone (or handful) of A grade students would be much more common if there are grammar schools taking the rest of the bright kids. Remember the best predictive tests mean that 1 in 5 students will be placed in the wrong school, so 1 in 10 top grade students won't get into the grammar. The lone able child is an argument against grammars, and an argument for true comprehensives.

teacher I've said before, my idea of inadequate isn't about league tables or ofsted, it's about what they do, or don't do, for their pupils.

As to community or school, then I don't think there is one clear answer. Some schools it might clearly be one or the other, but many it will be a combination. And of course the dept of education itself.

Bert why though? Surely your son was disappointed by the consequences of his exam, rather than the exam itself?

It is something I have thought about a lot. I took a huge gamble going for independent, and I was aware right from the start I was gambling with her possible or even likely disappointment. I really did agonise over that decision. But I still thought a slim chance was better than just giving up hope of a decent education entirely.

With social selection, and those that are disappointed by it, there is also the frustration that no matter what, you never even had that hope to be disappointed from.

HPFA - yes, pretty sure we must live near each other.

noble there aren't any grammars round here, and yet we still have comps with a lone a/a child. And because some dc will get them no matter what, a lone a/a child often indicates there are other pupils within the broader high ability range who could have got a*/a, or a/b etc at another school, but in that particular one have been ignored because they'll get c grades for the league tables either way.

lurked
and yet we still have comps with a lone a/a* child
I'm struggling to understand how that is possible statistically.

In Ds school there are 300 per year.
In DDs year there were over 30 of them who got solid As and As
if you add in the kids who got more than 5 A/A there were around 70 kids
which fits with 25% of grades being A or A* in that year.

Unless the cohorts are very small I find it highly unlikely that there are less than ten pupils in any comp who are working at A/A* level in each subject.

FWIW, the lone student issue did happen in my local school - but they had less than 70 in the cohort.

There is no grammar in either town though. They are fully comprehensive areas. The 'creaming off' of the more able kids is to the religious comprehensives and out of town schools. The FSM in the comp anyone can go to is 40%, being able to go to the RC comp (baptised or feeder rc primary) gets you 20% and the out of town C of E option (2 years church attendance yr 4 and 5 and £500 bus pass) has a FSM rate on a par with the nearest grammar. You will never get true comprehensives due to catchments and people opting for religious of private options.

You will never get true comprehensives due to catchments and people opting for religious of private options

One private school here - 15/20 kids per year

5 comprehensives via catchment - 300 kids per year 1500 / so 15/1500 are private.

Will see if I can find hose results

That's rather my point, Dixie', your top kids are creamed off by religious selection. In other areas they might not be, but if you open a grammar, then you will be creating the same problem with the comps there as there are in your area.

I'm against religious schools too, by the way!

Dixiechickonhols The kids with advantages (and being Christian is the main one, parent willing to pay £500 bus fare another) get a good comprehensive despite living in the deprived town.

You do realise that these are the exact same children who will gain places at Grammar Schools. Please do give an example of a Grammar School with an intake that domonstrates otherwise.

20% A and A*
70% 5 A-C grades

Across the board near enough

Private 46% A or A*

93% A-c grades

Big difference

Remember the best predictive tests mean that 1 in 5 students will be placed in the wrong school, so 1 in 10 top grade students won't get into the grammar.

Explain your reasoning here, please, noble? One would assume it would be mostly, or perhaps almost exclusively, the children who are near the borderline, and therefore might be expected to be OK in either school, who would be misclassified. Where did you get 1 in 10 from?

The school is very under subscribed. It is a failed super school at risk of closure. 40 applied for places this year. The end of town it is at is within 6 miles of an out of catchment grammar. So pupils with more educationally minded parents go to the RC/C of E comps or grammar. It has been in special measures and was inadequate a couple of years ago and now requires improvement. Understandably people are not queuing up to register their children there.

This grammar has a more representative intake than most (Skegness)

www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/2014/school.pl?urn=138757

If you look at the average grades though a typical pupil is getting something like BBBBBBCC. From memory I think in the Altrincham grammars the average is A+.

This grammar has a more representative intake than most (Skegness)

www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/2014/school.pl?urn=138757

If you look at the average grades though a typical pupil is getting something like BBBBBBCC. From memory I think in the Altrincham grammars the average is A+.

But if the conversation had been 'sorry son, you didn't get x school because we can't afford to live in catchment, and because I work Sunday's you didn't get y either, therefore you get z' then the disappointment would have been exactly the same.

You go for a job interview with five other candidates. You don't get the job

You go for a job interview where you are the only candidate. You don't get the job.

In both cases you haven't got the job and you are disappointed. But would anyone actually feel the same in both cases? If you do you must have a very secure ego!!

Carl if a child is achieving 8s in end of year exams in Y9, as a fair number in my DC's school currently are, what would you then suggest the teacher predicts? Of course seasoned teachers with a shed load of historical data to hand can predict 9s. Someone has to score the 9s after all.

Bertrand nothing will satisfy you. The names of two schools will merely meet with the response that two swallows don't make a summer. Much better for you to find out what's going on yourself, it's really not hard.

New thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/2704718-Theresa-May-to-end-ban-on-grammar-schools-part-2

HPFA the world can't be contrived along delicate lines purely to protect fragile egos. Parents need to step in, or up, not the state.

talkin the two schools I'm thinking of have much smaller cohorts than that. One has approximately half that, it's old and small. Other has capacity for maybe 30 more. But always has spaces. I too find it unlikely they only have lone dc of that ability, hence why I think one fails it's high ability pupils, and the other fails almost everyone. The latter also has unlikely non pass grades, which indicate kids who aren't capable of a pass are also ignored.

I come from a grammar school area and work in a comprehensive secondary school. We are a consistently good school and have a high SEN intake and students from deprived areas. We get good results despite the top percentage being taking off for grammar schools and importantly produce a well rounded whole person at the end of the schooling system. Our students feel safe at school and don't feel constantly pressured to achieve the top results. The students are put in sets and each set is encouraged to work to the best of their ability. Our students enjoy their schooling and always speak highly of the school. Our school does not have a sixth form and as such some of students join the local grammar school's sixth form. They have been told by both teachers and students that their GCSE grades from our school are not equivalent to GCSE grades in their school! What nonsense. There is huge competition to get into our local grammar school and only tutored students have a chance of getting in. This is unfair for bright students who cannot afford tutoring. In our area students who fail the 11+ are made to feel like failures which cannot help their self esteems. All children should have the chance of a good education and grammar schools segregate people and make them think they are more intelligent than other students just because they have been tutored to pass an exam.