BBC article: Outstanding schools take too few poor pupils

[Ginmummy1]

I spotted this article today, and wondered what others thought of it.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36926766

I thought the title was misleading. It implies that outstanding schools are deliberately choosing not to take poorer pupils, which I don’t think is accurate.

The report apparently found little overall bias in council-run secondary schools, and also that primary schools appear to be fairly balanced in terms of their intake. I am struggling, therefore, to understand the issue?

It says “the intakes of grammar schools, single-sex secondaries, non-Christian faith schools and schools rated outstanding by Ofsted all fail to reflect the proportion of poorer children in the areas immediately outside their gates“. It also suggests that the figures are likely to be partly “the result of different school choices between social groups”.

So what it appears to be saying is that poorer pupils are choosing not to apply to these types of schools, so this is more about the choices made by these pupils and their families, than about the schools themselves. I can’t see any claims of the schools discriminating against poorer pupils.

It also refers to the attainment gap between rich and poor being wider than the national average in Kent, Buckinghamshire and Surrey. Presumably this is partly due to parental influence (discipline with homework, private tutoring etc) which cannot really be the fault of the schools?

I’d be interested to know what others think.

[NobodyInParticular]

gilly yes, it's interesting hearing abut other areas.

What you describe in your area is (so I've been told by an Ex Head) what things were like in London suburbs until the 1970's (don't know about after that, just what it's like now). It sounds blissful! The manoeuvres people have to go through nowadays to get a decent school place (in lots of bits of SE England) are just ridiculous.

The problems I've seen in London (where there are problems) are mostly all the schools are crap except the church ones so parents either find a religion or move to a new area, or that there are many good schools but the 'distance from door' admissions is often 300 metres but can be as little as zero metres because every child is there on religious or sibling criteria and the house prices in those catchments are eye watering and there will be no houses to rent around admissions time.

Also, there is a lot of difference between the good schools and the bad ones.

In my rural area outside of London there is one catchment school which is not terrible but not great. You either go there or you will go to a private school, there aren't any other state options for Primary. Same for Secondary - 1 school.

Do you have many private schools in your area? Do many parents pick those? do you worry that as population increases you'll see more problems such as ours?

[teacherwith2kids]

It's probably worth saying that, particularly in rural areas, some village schools may be nominally CofE schools but actually have normal LA oversubscription criteria, with faith having no place.

Such schools are 'historically' CofE - because of the church's historical position of the only provider of education in some areas and then the transfer of such schools to the state - and are inspected by SIAMS as well as Osted, but their admissions crietria refelct their position as the 'only local school' rather than their 'church' character.

In fact in some areas, pretty much all schools will be such 'historical' church schools, with only the occasional Catholic school having any different admissions arrangements.

These are VERY different from the church schools that select by faith.

[gillybeanz]

Nobody

Sorry, there are two threads and I posted there as well

To answer your question.
There is one private school in a town about 8 miles from here, but very few from our town use it. It serves quite a large area and isn't so big.
There isn't really a calling for private schools in this area.

My dd goes to a ss specialist school, not academically selective, but only because she's a bit of a prodigy a term I don't like really but use it to describe. our other children and many others couldn't access it.

[Puffinity]

The level of ignorance about the links between socioeconomic background and educational outcomes on display in this thread is astounding! Ginmummy1 you asked for our opinions, so here goes:

So what it appears to be saying is that poorer pupils are choosing not to apply to these types of schools, so this is more about the choices made by these pupils and their families, than about the schools themselves. I can’t see any claims of the schools discriminating against poorer pupils.

Women are highly underrepresented in parliament. There is no active policy against women becoming MPs. Does that mean it is not a problem that women are underrepresented in parliament? I wouldn't think so, and the same applies to this issue - just because there is no formal impediment doesn't mean there is de facto equality of opportunities.

Badbadbunny All the local parents who care about their kids' education make sure they go elsewhere.

Really?! So if you're poor and can't afford bus fares to send your child to a better school that is further away you don't care about them?!

BertrandRussell seems to have some idea of what's going on, which is a relief...

I refer you to a whole host of information made available on this subject by charities such as Teach First and the Sutton Trust. There is something structurally wrong with access to good-quality education in this country!

[GnomeDePlume]

Puffinity I think that there is huge ignorance of what poverty can mean to a family's ability to have choice in many areas: education, healthcare, housing.

Badbadbunny referred to a school local to her offering subsidised bus travel at 'only' just over £1 per day.

Many families may not feel confident to be able to afford £5 or more each week for each child for a school bus. A strict school uniform policy may also make parents worry that they wont always be able to afford the correct uniform.

These things can make a family nervous of committing to a better school over the local school.

[Badbadbunny]

Many families may not feel confident to be able to afford £5 or more each week for each child for a school bus.

For the school I was referring to, it's £1 per day for those not eligible for discounted/free travel. If you have low income, they reduce or waive the cost, so someone who can't afford £1 per day (as proved by their income levels), will probably pay far less, or nothing at all. As I said, the school arranges it's own transport by hiring coaches from a local coach firm so have obviously made the decision to subsidise transport in return for filling their school and getting the "per pupil" grants.

The same school doesn't have any unusual/expensive uniform either - just normal black/navy trousers/blazers, no weird coloured blazers or obscure skirts!

My sister (single mother, minimum wage part time job, etc) sent one of her kids there as her elder child had experienced an awful time at the nearest comp and didn't want to risk her younger child experiencing the same. So, case proved - first child, just took the easy option of the nearest school because she knew no different, second child, avoided it like the plague and looked for affordable alternative, i.e. taking the time/effort to research and find a more suitable learning environment!

[TaIkinPeace]

For the school I was referring to, it's £1 per day for those not eligible for discounted/free travel. If you have low income, they reduce or waive the cost, so someone who can't afford £1 per day (as proved by their income levels), will probably pay far less, or nothing at all. As I said, the school arranges it's own transport by hiring coaches from a local coach firm so have obviously made the decision to subsidise transport in return for filling their school and getting the "per pupil" grants.

Which assumes that you live in catchment so are eligible for funded transport.
If (like me) your local school is dire, there is NO FUNDING at all towards transport to the decent schools.
The bus fare is £3 a day per child. Non negotiable.

[SandyPantz]

You get NO funding whatsoever if you pass up your catchment school to go to a "better" school further away

You only get funding if you don't get your chosen school and the council allocates you one further away. If you chose the further away one in the first place you get nothing.

So for the purposes of this thread (i.e. can poorer families chose to use better schools), the answer is no! you can't chose to go further afield than local available schools AND get funded transport there if you can't fund the transport yourself.

[GnomeDePlume]

Exactly, TalkinPeace and SandyPantz.

One school does not prove anything. It may be that school is under-subscribed or has access to local charitable funding. In an area with a high percentage of poor schools (as my area is), the good schools are already hugely over-subscribed. They dont need to offer anything to attract students.

[SandyPantz]

yes, the exception here is a (very) undersubscribed academy that can't attract enough applicants to fill a class. They do a free bus. But the only people who go there are people who would have got a free bus anyway (people who put down other choices and didn't get any of their choices so were allocated this school) so I'm not really sure if that helps the overall funding for their free bus service

[TaIkinPeace]

Sandy
My local school is also a Sponsored Academy.
It has over 400 empty places.
No buses though !

I'd love to see the funding agreement for a school providing a subsidised out of catchment bus.
Not sure how that gets past NAO rules.
The out of catchment coach for the school mine went to was over £700 a year. The public bus was cheaper.

Then again the bus pass for 6th form is best part of £800 - and nobody gets free transport at 6th form.

[SandyPantz]

The thing is that pretty much nobody from WITHIN its catchment go there you see

It's all people from other catchments who didn't get any of their 3 choices and were allocated this academy. And a few who had to move at short notice due to severe unresolved bullying etc - this is the only school that always has places.

Everyone from within this schools catchment chose other local schools.

It didn't initially have a bus service when it opened, I guess they thought they'ld pull from their own catchment. It was added about a year after it opened. Hasn't increased uptake though but probably improved lateness since everyone travels there from out of catchment