BBC article: Outstanding schools take too few poor pupils

[Ginmummy1]

I spotted this article today, and wondered what others thought of it.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36926766

I thought the title was misleading. It implies that outstanding schools are deliberately choosing not to take poorer pupils, which I don’t think is accurate.

The report apparently found little overall bias in council-run secondary schools, and also that primary schools appear to be fairly balanced in terms of their intake. I am struggling, therefore, to understand the issue?

It says “the intakes of grammar schools, single-sex secondaries, non-Christian faith schools and schools rated outstanding by Ofsted all fail to reflect the proportion of poorer children in the areas immediately outside their gates“. It also suggests that the figures are likely to be partly “the result of different school choices between social groups”.

So what it appears to be saying is that poorer pupils are choosing not to apply to these types of schools, so this is more about the choices made by these pupils and their families, than about the schools themselves. I can’t see any claims of the schools discriminating against poorer pupils.

It also refers to the attainment gap between rich and poor being wider than the national average in Kent, Buckinghamshire and Surrey. Presumably this is partly due to parental influence (discipline with homework, private tutoring etc) which cannot really be the fault of the schools?

I’d be interested to know what others think.

[SandyPantz]

The thing is that pretty much nobody from WITHIN its catchment go there you see

It's all people from other catchments who didn't get any of their 3 choices and were allocated this academy. And a few who had to move at short notice due to severe unresolved bullying etc - this is the only school that always has places.

Everyone from within this schools catchment chose other local schools.

It didn't initially have a bus service when it opened, I guess they thought they'ld pull from their own catchment. It was added about a year after it opened. Hasn't increased uptake though but probably improved lateness since everyone travels there from out of catchment

[TaIkinPeace]

Sandy
My local school is also a Sponsored Academy.
It has over 400 empty places.
No buses though !

I'd love to see the funding agreement for a school providing a subsidised out of catchment bus.
Not sure how that gets past NAO rules.
The out of catchment coach for the school mine went to was over £700 a year. The public bus was cheaper.

Then again the bus pass for 6th form is best part of £800 - and nobody gets free transport at 6th form.

[SandyPantz]

yes, the exception here is a (very) undersubscribed academy that can't attract enough applicants to fill a class. They do a free bus. But the only people who go there are people who would have got a free bus anyway (people who put down other choices and didn't get any of their choices so were allocated this school) so I'm not really sure if that helps the overall funding for their free bus service

[GnomeDePlume]

Exactly, TalkinPeace and SandyPantz.

One school does not prove anything. It may be that school is under-subscribed or has access to local charitable funding. In an area with a high percentage of poor schools (as my area is), the good schools are already hugely over-subscribed. They dont need to offer anything to attract students.

[SandyPantz]

You get NO funding whatsoever if you pass up your catchment school to go to a "better" school further away

You only get funding if you don't get your chosen school and the council allocates you one further away. If you chose the further away one in the first place you get nothing.

So for the purposes of this thread (i.e. can poorer families chose to use better schools), the answer is no! you can't chose to go further afield than local available schools AND get funded transport there if you can't fund the transport yourself.

[TaIkinPeace]

For the school I was referring to, it's £1 per day for those not eligible for discounted/free travel. If you have low income, they reduce or waive the cost, so someone who can't afford £1 per day (as proved by their income levels), will probably pay far less, or nothing at all. As I said, the school arranges it's own transport by hiring coaches from a local coach firm so have obviously made the decision to subsidise transport in return for filling their school and getting the "per pupil" grants.

Which assumes that you live in catchment so are eligible for funded transport.
If (like me) your local school is dire, there is NO FUNDING at all towards transport to the decent schools.
The bus fare is £3 a day per child. Non negotiable.

[Badbadbunny]

Many families may not feel confident to be able to afford £5 or more each week for each child for a school bus.

For the school I was referring to, it's £1 per day for those not eligible for discounted/free travel. If you have low income, they reduce or waive the cost, so someone who can't afford £1 per day (as proved by their income levels), will probably pay far less, or nothing at all. As I said, the school arranges it's own transport by hiring coaches from a local coach firm so have obviously made the decision to subsidise transport in return for filling their school and getting the "per pupil" grants.

The same school doesn't have any unusual/expensive uniform either - just normal black/navy trousers/blazers, no weird coloured blazers or obscure skirts!

My sister (single mother, minimum wage part time job, etc) sent one of her kids there as her elder child had experienced an awful time at the nearest comp and didn't want to risk her younger child experiencing the same. So, case proved - first child, just took the easy option of the nearest school because she knew no different, second child, avoided it like the plague and looked for affordable alternative, i.e. taking the time/effort to research and find a more suitable learning environment!

[GnomeDePlume]

Puffinity I think that there is huge ignorance of what poverty can mean to a family's ability to have choice in many areas: education, healthcare, housing.

Badbadbunny referred to a school local to her offering subsidised bus travel at 'only' just over £1 per day.

Many families may not feel confident to be able to afford £5 or more each week for each child for a school bus. A strict school uniform policy may also make parents worry that they wont always be able to afford the correct uniform.

These things can make a family nervous of committing to a better school over the local school.

[Puffinity]

The level of ignorance about the links between socioeconomic background and educational outcomes on display in this thread is astounding! Ginmummy1 you asked for our opinions, so here goes:

So what it appears to be saying is that poorer pupils are choosing not to apply to these types of schools, so this is more about the choices made by these pupils and their families, than about the schools themselves. I can’t see any claims of the schools discriminating against poorer pupils.

Women are highly underrepresented in parliament. There is no active policy against women becoming MPs. Does that mean it is not a problem that women are underrepresented in parliament? I wouldn't think so, and the same applies to this issue - just because there is no formal impediment doesn't mean there is de facto equality of opportunities.

Badbadbunny All the local parents who care about their kids' education make sure they go elsewhere.

Really?! So if you're poor and can't afford bus fares to send your child to a better school that is further away you don't care about them?!

BertrandRussell seems to have some idea of what's going on, which is a relief...

I refer you to a whole host of information made available on this subject by charities such as Teach First and the Sutton Trust. There is something structurally wrong with access to good-quality education in this country!

[gillybeanz]

Nobody

Sorry, there are two threads and I posted there as well

To answer your question.
There is one private school in a town about 8 miles from here, but very few from our town use it. It serves quite a large area and isn't so big.
There isn't really a calling for private schools in this area.

My dd goes to a ss specialist school, not academically selective, but only because she's a bit of a prodigy a term I don't like really but use it to describe. our other children and many others couldn't access it.

[teacherwith2kids]

It's probably worth saying that, particularly in rural areas, some village schools may be nominally CofE schools but actually have normal LA oversubscription criteria, with faith having no place.

Such schools are 'historically' CofE - because of the church's historical position of the only provider of education in some areas and then the transfer of such schools to the state - and are inspected by SIAMS as well as Osted, but their admissions crietria refelct their position as the 'only local school' rather than their 'church' character.

In fact in some areas, pretty much all schools will be such 'historical' church schools, with only the occasional Catholic school having any different admissions arrangements.

These are VERY different from the church schools that select by faith.

[NobodyInParticular]

gilly yes, it's interesting hearing abut other areas.

What you describe in your area is (so I've been told by an Ex Head) what things were like in London suburbs until the 1970's (don't know about after that, just what it's like now). It sounds blissful! The manoeuvres people have to go through nowadays to get a decent school place (in lots of bits of SE England) are just ridiculous.

The problems I've seen in London (where there are problems) are mostly all the schools are crap except the church ones so parents either find a religion or move to a new area, or that there are many good schools but the 'distance from door' admissions is often 300 metres but can be as little as zero metres because every child is there on religious or sibling criteria and the house prices in those catchments are eye watering and there will be no houses to rent around admissions time.

Also, there is a lot of difference between the good schools and the bad ones.

In my rural area outside of London there is one catchment school which is not terrible but not great. You either go there or you will go to a private school, there aren't any other state options for Primary. Same for Secondary - 1 school.

Do you have many private schools in your area? Do many parents pick those? do you worry that as population increases you'll see more problems such as ours?

[gillybeanz]

Nobody

It seems that way, but honestly there is no gain. All the schools are pretty much the same and even the outstanding ones in the next town aren't as others describe where people move to be in catchment.
They are at the end of a few streets of terraces and the parents are wc.
Its an education hearing about other areas, I find it interesting tbh.
I have a PgCE and some Masters level credits in Education.
The parents are just the same as anywhere else and some are invested others not bothered. Nobody has tutors as we don't have grammars, the stories of the SE and schools are very interesting and hard to imagine at times.

[NobodyInParticular]

Gilly it sounds like in your area these problems do not occur often because you have under subscription even for the best schools most years? You're very lucky! It's certainly not like that in many other bits of the country.

[gillybeanz]

2016

We are NW and I agree it's similar here.
Most schools get the same results have the same facilities and you usually get the one you choose first.
It doesn't make any difference though and there isn't really a choice to make.
As for those who may talk of Latin, the nearest school to us is Faith, just out of special measures and the only school in the borough to teach Latin.
hardly anyone chooses it

[2016Blyton]

It's hard to generalise. As people say above in London (where the comps get results often 2 grades at GCSE ahead of say Hull comps) there is lots of choice.

Out of London there will often be one staet school for anyone in a paticular rural area and most areas have no grammar schools at all. Where I am from (NE) the RC primaries have children of lots of faiths and are no better than any other state primary.

[gillybeanz]

Sandy

Please read my posts, it's obviously not the same at all.
I don't see what is so difficult to understand tbh.
In years when the county had full years/ baby boom/ whatever you'd like to call it, then it is exactly how you say, except for having to have attended a faith primary, to attend faith secondary.

But we tend not to have full years very often so the fith schools don't have to be as strict with the criteria as when they are full, they need bums on seats and don't care where the kids have come from.

[gillybeanz]

No, dd is 12 and if we had chosen the same school as her friends it would have been the nearest school which was CofE, it's not very good though so loads of places and it wasn't a full school year.
My ds1 didn't get the same school when it was good and a full school year, he had to go to nearest community school.

It wasn't full for ds2 and was good at the time, he got to go.

The time span has nothing to do with it as I told you it is still the same

[SandyPantz]

gillybeanz just because in the particular year your DCs went to the church secondary it cut off at a lower priority criteria than the church primary priorities, dosn't mean that the priority isn't there! it is there, even if you got in on a lower priority

Church secondaries prioritise kids from church primaries (even if in particular years they ALSO take from lower criteria), comps DO NOT prioritise kids from secular primaries… ergo, you are less limited for secondary options if you go to a church primary! regardless of whether you have other options or not!

[BertrandRussell]

Oh, right. 20 years ago.

[gillybeanz]

It is still the same Bert

but my ds are 24, nearly 25 and ds2 is 21.
Dd is 12, but not in this equation.

I know it's still the same due to the small communities which we live in and listening to what friends and associates say about the schools.
Also, still keep in touch with secondary schools as never know if I might need one, one day.
Hopefully we won't.

[BertrandRussell]

How long ago was this?

[gillybeanz]

Not here Sandy.
My ds2 went to a Catholic Primary, we never went to church and aren't Catholic, then transferred for 2 years to community primary, then went to a CofE secondary with most of the friends from community primary.

My ds1 went CofE infant, community primary, community secondary.

My dd went to CofE primary, then don't know where she'd have gone after this as she is private now.

We aren't religious, don't go to church, couldn't get vicor to sign the forms that we had attended church as we hadn't.

As I've said so many times. It depends where you live.
Our Faith schools are no different to community, unless they are over subscribed. Which is only ever if the whole county had a boom birth year, so not very often. Twice in the last 15 years iirc.

[SandyPantz]

I can see it must be difficult if your faith schools are somehow better

oh my days!

even if your church school isn't "better", you are still potentially limited for secondary if your kids go to a state primary instead of a faith primary

Faith secondaries give priority to kids from faith primaries - Comps don't give priority to secular primaries - so you're at a disadvantage for secondary from reception if you use secular primaries. It doesn't matter if the faith secondary is undersubscribed at reception, that could change by yr7!

[gillybeanz]

Our borough is quite big and about 8 miles away there is a town with lots of little terraces, like coronation street. rows and rows of them all with schools at the end of streets.
These schools are ofsted outstanding and serve the poorest kids in the area.
it isn't always true that the rich get the best schools.
The difference I see is that up here for some reason parents don't make a fuss about schools and unfairness they just get on with it.
We don't see those with big houses and flash cars, selling up to live in one of the terraces, they make do with their satisfactory or good schools.