BBC article: Outstanding schools take too few poor pupils

[Ginmummy1]

I spotted this article today, and wondered what others thought of it.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36926766

I thought the title was misleading. It implies that outstanding schools are deliberately choosing not to take poorer pupils, which I don’t think is accurate.

The report apparently found little overall bias in council-run secondary schools, and also that primary schools appear to be fairly balanced in terms of their intake. I am struggling, therefore, to understand the issue?

It says “the intakes of grammar schools, single-sex secondaries, non-Christian faith schools and schools rated outstanding by Ofsted all fail to reflect the proportion of poorer children in the areas immediately outside their gates“. It also suggests that the figures are likely to be partly “the result of different school choices between social groups”.

So what it appears to be saying is that poorer pupils are choosing not to apply to these types of schools, so this is more about the choices made by these pupils and their families, than about the schools themselves. I can’t see any claims of the schools discriminating against poorer pupils.

It also refers to the attainment gap between rich and poor being wider than the national average in Kent, Buckinghamshire and Surrey. Presumably this is partly due to parental influence (discipline with homework, private tutoring etc) which cannot really be the fault of the schools?

I’d be interested to know what others think.

[3amEternal]

Outer London. Our 2 state catchment schools are 30% FSM and bridge an area with both great wealth and poverty. Very low % minority children so is poor white working class. Both schools veer between needing improvement and good. Results are pretty average. Behaviour and senior management are not good and teacher turnover high. The outstanding state school has no catchment, is a church school requiring 7 years of now weekly attendance (someone I know went every fortnight and didn't get in this year). FSM is 7% and school has stable senior management team and rated outstanding. Non grammar area. There are 3 excellent academically selective independent schools that are massively oversubscribed. The middle class apply in greater numbers every year to the independent and church school.

[Nataleejah]

the last time I looked at a results table those with ESL actually outscored many.
they related that finding to strong parental push to excel at school.

There could be another factor. Other countries have tougher/more advanced academic standards. So if a child went to school in another country, and transferred to UK, they can already be a year or two ahead of their british peers in maths, science, nnd other subjcets, despite poorer english.

[haybott]

I would imagine there is a correlation between low achievement and ESL though - if you arrive in the UK in Y5 / Y6 speaking no English I think achieving highly in SATS would be a challenge.

Not that simple. There is some correlation between ESL children from low income/educational backgrounds and low achievement.

However, many ESL children come from backgrounds in which education is highly valued; income is medium to high; parents moved countries (which in itself correlates with ambition for their children). Such children outperform national averages.

If one looks at ethnic origin (not the same thing as ESL but connected), then British white males do considerably worse than those of Asian, South Asian, Eastern European etc origin.

BTW as an academic I frequently see colleagues' children arriving in the UK speaking no English and within 6 months being in the top decile nationally.

[GnomeDePlume]

I would be interested to know how many people really have a choice.

We live in a small town, 1 school and it 'requires improvement'. It was recently in receipt a a Pre Warning Notice. This school has had more heads than years we have been associated with the school. A few years ago it managed to reach the very bottom of the school league tables.

Did parents leave in droves?

No, because there is nowhere else to go. We have a Hobson's choice of one crap school.

If you have a choice then lucky, lucky you.

[Badbadbunny]

No, because there is nowhere else to go. We have a Hobson's choice of one crap school.

Really no other schools a bus ride away?

In our town we have two crap schools. There are at least 10 school buses leaving the town to go to a good comp across the county border, and loads of kids go by service bus or train to the nearby city for the Faith schools. The two crap schools have declining numbers because people just don't want to send their kids there even if it means paying for transport and a longer day due to travel. The kids who do go there are the ones who's parents don't value a decent education, hence a vicious circle due to disruption, poor behaviour etc. Very difficult to break that cycle.

[Feckitall]

When DC were little we had one choice for DC, to choose the next nearest school would have cost us the bus fares as opposed to free transport...at the time we were on benefits..
Choice for the poor is often to take the offered place, without the money to take other choices there is no choice!
As it was all 3 DC eventually had indie school places on bursaries...it was actually cheaper for us than state school...
I used to say 'we may be poor, but we aren't stupid'

[Badbadbunny]

Cost depends on your local authority and the school themselves. The school I'm referring to across the county border lay on their own charter buses from a local coach operator and charge just £200 per year, which is just over £1 per school day. Even with such a low cost, they also have a scheme to help those on benefits to reduce it further or even provide at no cost depending on circumstances. That's why they have over 10 school buses! Many pupils go by car instead and some use service buses instead. Those who choose a Faith school in the nearby city also get subsidised/free transport by virtue of their being no Faith schools in the town itself. So at least around here, even the poor have choices as £1 per day is the maximum cost.

[SarfEast1cated]

We have 2 ofsted outstanding London state schools near us, one v academic with expensive formal uniform, the other single sex but equally academic. I would be much happier for DD to go to a small mixed ability comprehensive community school which offered more creative subjects. She is pretty bookish, so doesn't struggle with school work, I just think education (and life) should be about a lot more than exam results.

I went to a girls grammar in the 80s and a lot of my peers flunked exams, took boring jobs and went back into education later in life.

[Iamnotloobrushphobic]

In London people can choose the small mixed ability schools over the academic ones because Lobfon schools are unlike most of the country -mainly due youths huge amount of additional funding London schools get vs the schools around the rest of the country. It's much harder for schools to do well when they have massive social problems, huge numbers of deprived children and a very small budget.

[Iamnotloobrushphobic]

Apologies for typos - multitask fail

[GnomeDePlume]

Badbadbunny of course there are other schools in other towns but you cant just rock up at the door and say 'teach me'. You arent able to reject a school place because you dont like the school. You have to have grounds for an appeal other than 'the school is no good'.

When there are a number of failing schools in an area, the good schools become massively over-subscribed.

Within a 5 mile radius of my town there are 10 secondary schools. 4 require improvement, 4 are good, 2 are outstanding.

Just how many spare places do you think the good or outstanding schools have?

[GnomeDePlume]

Also, no free bus if you manage to get a place other than your nearest school.

[Minstrelsareyum]

I'm pretty certain that the supplementary form we had to sign for admission into my son's C of E faith school didn't require confirmation of having paid into the church funds for a few years! We applied because we go to church and wanted a faith school with good pastoral care for our sensitive DS. I've never been a regular financial contributor to church funds and give my time with voluntary stuff in the church (which also does not guarantee a bigger chance of school admission). "Attended for min. of once a month for 12 months" was all that was needed and the form was actually signed by the minister who had just joined the church. I had been attending for around 12 years and had also been a regular as a child. The school is a feeder for over 30 primaries in 4 boroughs in well to do as well as poorer areas.

It's appalling if this is happening in some faith schools - do you really have to prove financial contributions to get into a particular school?

[teacherwith2kids]

Minstrels, for very popular faith schools, it can easily become an arms race - and the type of 'proof' needed in the arms race can a) cause dysfunctional behaviours (sign register, leave) and b) very actively discriminate against those who e.g. have to work at weekends to keep food on the table; move house a lot; have chaotic lifestyles for whatever reason.

It would, I think, be against the admissions code for financial contributions to form part of it (the adjudicator reported on this a while back, citing a number of schools were financial contributions e.g. to the school fund were forming an explicit or implicit part of the process - so literature that states 'we expect all parents to make an annual contribution of X to the school fund' will obviously put off poorer families). However if e.g.one type of proof required for 'attendance at services' was 'envelopes in the collection plate, which have to be named and addressed for Gift Aid purposes' it can get very marginal...

[BertrandRussell]

"It's appalling if this is happening in some faith schools - do you really have to prove financial contributions to get into a particular school?"

I have heard anecdotes to that effect- no idea whether it's true or not.

But any commitment to church attendance is in itself discriminatory, whatever it is.

[Lurkedforever1]

There's no choice here either. The church schools are hugely oversubscribed, you need years of regular attendance to stand a chance. I've heard of numerous cases of people who have moved into the area, or even country, attended local churches at least weekly, after years of regularly attending in their previous parish, and still not getting a place, despite being well in catchment.

The good schools require a more expensive postcode, bar a tiny minority of cheaper houses that luckily fall into the good schools catchments.

Therefore you can choose between a school that is good for dc of average and below academically, with decent pastoral care. Or one that is awful across the board. Due to the crapness of the latter, even the former is oversubscribed, and although the housing market is the same for both, it's mainly social or ex social, or cheap private, so even between those two schools there is little realistic choice.

[SandyPantz]

It's appalling if this is happening in some faith schools - do you really have to prove financial contributions to get into a particular school

At ours you get a years worth of envelopes, each with a Sunday's date on it, with your name on it. They form a register "for gift aid purposes"

They are your "proof" that you've been as often as you say, in theory they are counting the envelope themselves, but it would be massively frowned upon if they were empty, as they are contribution envelopes.

So while in theory, financial contributions don't give you priority
Someone whose attendance is "registered" via their contribution envelopes will have priority over someone who just says they've been every week/month and hopes the priest remembers having seen them there IYKWIM

[gillybeanz]

We have church schools of all christian denominations and community schools.
To attend the church schools you have to be baptised at the same church, parents and children have to attend, there is sibling criteria though, which helps. It does get down to attending church groups and parents being involved in organising the groups at some schools.
They are no better than the community schools here, so nobody bothers.
If the nearest school is full, you move onto the next.
None of them are any good/ different though. so there isn't the angst here that I hear about in other areas.

[SandyPantz]

None of them are any good/ different though. so there isn't the angst here that I hear about in other areas.

They don't have to be good to have people sell their granny to get in, they just have to be on the criteria for the church secondary, and people (understandably) don't want to be limiting their childs secondary school choices before the child has even been to primary… so they have to get into the feeder church primaries or else their secondary school choices could be limited

[TaIkinPeace]

I've not RTFT but

I actively avoided my local sponsored academy as the sponsors are utter muppets
they have 50% FSM and 40% SEN
because
the rest of us take our kids elsewhere

its the sponsor we have the problem with, and that has driven the segregation

[gillybeanz]

Sandy

That must be weird, maybe in some places the church schools are better, here they are the same as community schools for primary and secondary.
There are feeder schools for the community as well as church schools, so if you are religious you go to a church school, if not community.
It really is that simple and nobody bothers to sell any granny as it isn't necessary.

[SandyPantz]

There are feeder schools for the community as well as church schools, so if you are religious you go to a church school, if not community

Feeder schools for comps?
The comps near you actually state a criteria on their priority list that says kids that attended secular schools get priority?
I have never heard of that!
I have seen religious secondaries that state on their priority criteria that children who are baptised, church going AND attended said religion primaries are in a higher priority than baptised, church going children who haven't.

And even if they're on a par, you don't wanna limit your child's Yr7 choices before they've even started reception as you have no idea if they'll need certain sport or support facilities or subject choices etc yet

[gillybeanz]

I don't see where the limit comes in.
You go to the school that has a place, usually the nearest.
If you want a church school and are religious and tick the boxes then you go there.
There are church attenders who don't want a church school and don't bother.
There really isn't a problem here.
I read that in other places church schools may be better than the community high schools, but it isn't the case here. Most schools are the same irrespective of religious schools.
Some of the Parish boundaries may seem unfair, as some are bigger than others, so you can only really attend a church school of the Parish you are in, so some oversubscribed and others with small classes.
Community schools take the children living the nearest, we are not short of primary places.

[SandyPantz]

How are you not getting this? are you just determined not to?

If you go to the faith school for primary, you have a chance of getting into the comp, a chance of getting into fairth secondary, and a bash at grammar

If you go to the secular primary, you are unlikely to get in a high enough priority criteria for faith secondary, you have a chance at getting into the local comp, and can have a bash at grammar

State primary = choice of 2 secondary schools: 1 comp, 1 selective
Faith primary = choice of 3 secondary schools: 1 comp, 1 faith secondary, 1 selective

comps do not prioritise athiests, church schools DO prioritise christians, what's not to get?

[GnomeDePlume]

A lot of mumsnetters dont get that for many parents there isnt a real choice of schools. They send their DCs to the local school because that is what they can afford.

A strict uniform policy and a subsidised bus might appeal to MC parents but for others they are unwelcoming. Worries about being able to afford the uniform or the bus may well put parents off.

Cost again: DCs' friends will be in other towns which means finding the money for buses/fuel to support meet ups.