Getting a refund of 13+ deposit in London

[February7]

I wonder if anyone can help me?

I paid a non-refundable deposit of £2000 to secure 13+ place for my child at a London day school. This school was one of 2 back up plan schools in case my child failed favoured school at CE.

Back up school 1 held entry exams earlier than all London day schools and wouldn't let me hold the offer we received for place 2 weeks until I got results of Back up school 2 exam. We landed up paying 2 deposits as back up school 1 was not for us.. Non-refundable... And then our child was successful at CE at favourite school.

As soon as I heard that my child had got into back up school 2 we called school 1 and told them 1.5 terms in advance that our cold would not be attending. They filled the space dozens of times over and refused to refund the deposit, in stark contrast to the other London school who returned the 2,000 saying it would be "immoral" to keep it as his school was full.

Can anyone suggest how I can approach this best? Or recommend a lawyer who could help?

I'd like to explore the legality of school not refunding a place-holding deposit of £2,000 even though

1. I have given 1.5 terms notice in February that my child would not start school in September.
2. The place were all filled
3. Is non-refundable deposit permitted in these circumstance, by legislation or charities regulation?

In my view this school has simply moved its entrance exams to before everyone else's cynically, knowing well that it is a back up school and using this system of taking deposits as a cash cow from London parents where there are few private schools around.

Any help/thoughts much appreciated

Cakeisalwaysanswer

Totally get what you say here. In all of this it's the kids that really matter and I can see that the system tries its best to give parents certainty about next steps. All systems have problems I guess.

The difficulty I am having is where schools are asking for acceptance at different dates and I can't make a balanced decision. So, in my general area of south west/west London there are really only 2 schools that at 13 that my son DB could possibly get in to. He's not going to get into the very academic schools, his school says.

One of these two schools holds its exams and requires acceptance and payment of non-refundable deposit before we hear back from the other school re results. My preferred school is the second one but i really don't want to (and can't) pay this deposit - especially now I've read this - until I've waited the 2 more weeks for the second schools results. The first school apparently catch parents with this every year and I'm told by some Yr 8 parents at our school that they've just had to pay or face having no London place for their child as there are not enough London places.

It is non-refundable precisely to deter place hedging.

Schools want to know they have full enough classes (in time to adjust staffing if necessary), and parents want lists to move in enough time for people who are waiting and hoping to receive offers in good time. If all deposits were refundable, then this movement would not happen until much later on, but which time children would be teed up to start at their fallback school and may well turn down an offer they woukd have accepted at the normal point.

Remember that for most CE schools, the outcome is not known until June/July. Expecting (non-CE) day schools to be unable to finalise their lists until July is simply not reasonable. And that is what would happen if CE offer holders could also hold other places in expectation of no cost.

It's likely to leave the competitive exam schools with vacancies. After all, would you still be hanging on a wait list until the very end of the school year? Or would you, if not offered a place at the competitive exam schools you tried, start the scramble for a a totally different place at the point you were turned down/wait listed?

Making it easier to game the system (by holding multiple offers) is not going to lead to any improvement.

Ok I can now see why that is a problem and that doesn't seem right, IME the local schools have arranged it so that parents have more than enough time to choose between them as I explained. But it maybe that this is only a recent problem as the pressure on school places forces parents to look further afield for schools. From what you are saying the prep heads need to get together and speak to the senior school and get your preferred school to bring their dates forward so that this doesn't happen.

Thomas's is a big school in it's combined state so why don't you start with your head get him to speak to the other Thomas heads and then any other of the prep feeders to this school and try and put pressure on them. Your preferred school may not be aware that this is a problem and a small change to their offer date would solve it.

For as long as schools can fill their places at the time they choose to offer them, they have no incentive to change.

If you want a London school, with offer/acceptance dates having a goodly overlap so you can choose between offers before non-refundable deposits due, then you go for 11+. Or one of the several schools with overlapping window in Feb at 13+.

If you confirm a place at a school, then you have to accept the consequence, which is lost deposit, if you change your mind. You do not have to apply for, or accept places at, a school whose admin you do not like. A decline in application numbers is the message a school is most likely to heed.

I agree with cake.

There will always be a date problem between the CE schools and the non CE schools at 13+. Schools like Dulwich will want to sort out their numbers in Jan/Feb, whilst CE is not till June. However very very few fail CE, and a good prep should give fair warning if a boy who has got through the pre-test is not making the progress they should. Where it does happen a good prep should be able to find an occassional place at somewhere acceptable. (There is a bit of churn at the end of Yr 8 in 11+ schools as pupils leave to board, move to the state sector or leave London and schools won't know numbers till Easter when notice is due.) In the many years DC have been at London schools we have known it happen three times, and in each case things worked out just fine. Rather than pay a deposit and after taking school advice, I would turn down the Plan B school with a polite letter explaining you are waiting on the Plan A school, leaving the door open to revert to them if you need to.

As far as 11+ goes, there is a decision to be made if you are on a wait list about how long you will hang on and how much money you are prepared to lose. It is not unknown for the first school to offer a one-off cash bursary to help compensate for the lost deposit elsewhere if the place is offered very late in the day. However at worst you lose one deposit, not the two OP put up, and though expensive it pales into insignificance given the total cost of private education.

Daphne, the different acceptance dates make perfect sense when you consider that these schools are judged on their results (GCSE/A level/uni entrance) and are therefore in competition with one another to attract the best candidates.

In the scenario you mention, I would be willing to bet that School 1, with the earlier acceptance date, has a weaker academic reputation than School 2. By having an earlier acceptance date, School 1 is hoping that some candidates who are in fact academically strong enough to get into School 2 will opt to pay the deposit for School 1, as insurance against not getting a place at School 2. Some of these candidates will stick with School 1 even if they subsequently get a place at School 2, because they can't afford to pay deposits to both. So School 1 ends up with an intake with a better academic standard than it would have had if the acceptance dates had been the same for both schools.

Thank you everyone. I understand the whole process so much more now and will avoid the expense that OB had to bear. I think you are right about the first school posting results sooner as its a less academic choice in West London, it's a very glitzy school with a more show business feel, one that we really would only want if there was just no other choice and the fees there are higher anyway!! That's why I jumped so heavily into this thread as OB's experience worried me. I'd be a bit scared to write to that school to ask for extra time to choose, the admissions ladies are also terrifying and it's very much that they are doing you a favour....Will bring this up with our Head too.

Absolutely bring it up with the Head, they have a lot of power particularly if they get together.

Good luck Daphne, hope it all goes well and you get your preferred school.

With HMC schools, the 13+ deposits are supposed to be fully refundable up until the end of December in Year 7 - almost a year after the pre-test process, so plenty of time to decide between multiple offers. Presumably the school that is causing Daphne problems isn't a member of HMC?

If I read it right, she had accepted one CE offer, plus two competitive entry non-CE places offered in year 8. So way later than the year 7 CE deposits.

Daphne is not OP. OP did put down two additional deposits and now seems to have left the building.

Hopefully you are liable for the first term's fees at both backup schools, is this the case?

OP / Daphne (same person?) seem to have disappeared...

No need for the anti-American comments above.

I am a bit puzzled as both the schools I paid deposits on for my son for 13+ have large refundable portions of their deposits, providing the places are filled. As they are westminster and Eton, I am hoping that, like friends from previous years, I will get quite a bit of my option money back.

It's not that puzzling. OP referred to only one CE school, and that was not one she sought a return of deposit from.

Those two were 13+ competitive entry schools, requiring deposits after confirmed offer. It's not like relinquishing a conditional offer from a CE school before the formal 'first choice' point.

The headmaster at my son's current independent school told us (which I am not sure is true or not) that if a school takes a deposit, you decide not to send your child, but you have given enough notice for the school to offer to another child, then they are legally obligated to refund that deposit. He said the schools would not offer a refund, but you had to ask for one.

It makes sense--they have taken the deposit from another child, they have given the place out rather than to keep it for your child.

It doesn't matter what the contract actually says--many contracts are not legally binding or the terms are actually illegal! (I've lived in the UK long enough to have experienced this). Have they provided a service for the consideration? How have you benefitted? Is there some promissory estoppel that should come into play? These are questions for lawyers (not for my son's headmaster to be sure).

Does anyone here know what is true in practice? I have a feeling 95% of parents who have changed their mind on a school wind up forfeiting their deposits, irrespective of their legal rights.

OFT has something to say on the T&Cs. Just because you agreed doesn't mean they are fully binding. Please take a look at www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/threads/school-fees-deposit-withheld-although-a-new-student-took-the-place.278252/
in particular the section dealing with OFT

4.3 Where customers cancel without any such justification, and the supplier suffers loss as a result, they cannot expect a full refund of all
prepayments17. But a term under which they always lose everything they
have paid in advance, regardless of the amount of any costs and losses caused by the cancellation, is at clear risk of being considered an unfair
penalty

5.1 It is unfair to impose disproportionate sanctions for breach of contract. A requirement to pay more in compensation for a breach than a reasonable pre-estimate of the loss caused to the supplier is one kind of excessive penalty. Such a requirement will, in any case, normally be void to the extent that it amounts to a penalty under English common law. Other types of disproportionate sanction are considered below - Part III, Group 18(c).

There are some exceptionally unhelpful comments from some extremely sarcastic and stupidly judgmental people on this forum. "What part of non-refundable do you not understand"? "Comedy thread o the year".

Arrogant and ill-informed! There are people on this forum who should be ashamed of their judgmental attitude.

February 7 asked a reasonable question especially given the inconsistencies of the approaches of various schools.

Non-refundable does not mean non-refundable! Lots of people don't know their rights, which is why so many corporations and schools take advantage of the British public (and do something which may, in fact, be illegal!). This doesn't happen in the US because we tend not to roll over so much. This is one thing you could learn from ugly Americans--stick up for yourselves.

Just because it is in a contract does not make it binding--it may have been an illegal term that an unknowing solicitor wrote. Or they just wanted to see what they could get away with! Don't expect your counterparties to be always fair.

I paid a non-refundable deposit of £2000 to secure 13+ place for my child at a London day school.

Which is, but it's very nature, non refundable.

Back up school 1 held entry exams earlier than all London day schools and wouldn't let me hold the offer we received for place 2 weeks until I got results of Back up school 2 exam. We landed up paying 2 deposits as back up school 1 was not for us.. Non-refundable... And then our child was successful at CE at favourite school.

Okay, so what you are saying is that one of your 'back up' choices wouldn't change their whole application and admissions policy and system to suit you on the off chance that you might send your kid there? Really? Hmm.

As soon as I heard that my child had got into back up school 2 we called school 1 and told them 1.5 terms in advance that our cold would not be attending. They filled the space dozens of times over and refused to refund the deposit, in stark contrast to the other London school who returned the 2,000 saying it would be "immoral" to keep it as his school was full.

Whether that school thinks it's immoral is irrelevant. The school has a policy and you entered the contract with them. You can't then demand that they change the rules YOU agreed to because someone else has a set of rules you prefer. That's not how contracts work.

*Can anyone suggest how I can approach this best? Or recommend a lawyer who could help?

I'd like to explore the legality of school not refunding a place-holding deposit of £2,000 even though *

Okay. I'm in a good mood, so I'm gonna give you this for free - you entered a contract with that school on application - see my points below for further clarification - and since they fulfilled their contract they are under no obligation to refund.

*1. I have given 1.5 terms notice in February that my child would not start school in September.

1. The place were all filled
2. Is non-refundable deposit permitted in these circumstance, by legislation or charities regulation?

In my view this school has simply moved its entrance exams to before everyone else's cynically, knowing well that it is a back up school and using this system of taking deposits as a cash cow from London parents where there are few private schools around.

Any help/thoughts much appreciated*

Okay, several points on this - firstly I have a lot of sympathy for parents with the stresses of these applications and I know first hand how complex and difficult it can be when trying to juggle applications to several schools. So believe me when I say I empathise on that point.

However, I also have to point out that you took advantage of this school in that you paid to have the school reserve a place for your child in the knowledge that it was a last resort school. And yet you talk about immorality in fees? You got what you paid for. The school held the place and you decided you didn't want it. Beyond that the school doesn't have any obligation to you.

Your child passed and was offered a place that you then reserved, ensuring entry. You then decide not to take it after places have been reserved by other families. This then leaves the school with a hole to fill, so to speak, and reallocating that place costs time and money and not to mention reputation - 'sorry, you failed to get in' 'oh wait, we have a place for you after all, silly us'

I have clearly not explained well enough how the current schooling entrance system forces many parents to enter into this deposit game they mostly can ill afford to secure their kids a few paying school place.

Are you aware of how patronising you sound right now? Assuming that, on a forum full of parents, that we plebs don't understand how the application system works?

If you can't afford the deposits then you can't afford the fees. That's my personal stance on it. If you are quibbling over a 2k non-refundable deposit that you agreed to then are you also going to demand a refund on fees when your child fails GCSE Geography (example) ?

If the CE system did not allow schools to opt out of the uniform process then it would be easy to chose schools 1,2,3,4 as with maintained schools.

I actually agree in part - while the old way was easier in terms of applications, the new system SHOULD (red: should but does not always because is still a work in progress) offer more opportunies to intelligent and promising students ahead of students who happen to come from money. However, bursaries and 'charity' places (god I hate that term) need to be more readily available and accessible.

Anyhow, I apologise to those who feel so hard done by in this system they have elected to be a part of.

And again with the the passive aggressive patronisation.

The real problem is not some parents, like me, being able to afford to pay several deposits, but it's the system.

It's both. Neither are good to be honest.

Thanks for your time - except mrs cakeseater. Im a first (and last time) user of this platform. I now understand the power of anonymous mobs & why our kids suffer so! it's pretty odd to get so very personal about a legal question.*

Wow. You must be a real delight at dinner parties. Are you always so rude to strangers? You have been given good sound advice from several people, free of charge, and you have chosen, rather than listen and process and thank, to patronise and belittle.

....and I don't agree with that legal advice, it's simplistic. It's quite a complex legal point, not simple contract law about the deposit being non-refundable but impacted by charities regulation too, and recent case law, hence search for expert. And I did not actually sign anything.

a) it doesn't matter whether you agree with it or not.
b) It is not a complex matter
c) you were told the payment was non-refundable when you applied and by continuing with your application you entered into a contract in which you accepted those terms
d) Doesn't matter if you think you 'signed anything' or not - you were made aware during the application process that this was the contract you were entering into by continuing. You continued. Presumably you had to fill in an application and or paper work during application and testing?

Sorry. You don't have a leg to stand on.

Just supposing OP, that you needed the back up place that you paid the deposit for...and then you got a message from the school, 1.5 terms in advance, that actually the place was no longer available because a better candidate had turned up and applied...what would your response have been then? Far from understanding I suspect!

Good point, sleepwhenIdie

And you can take it further, because the applicant might have been able to make other choices if it had all happened during the main offers system. And now they'd get inky the left-overs.

Same for the school.

It's a non-refundable deposit for guaranteeing a place (the standard - and upheld in court - fees in lieu of notice not applying here).

English case law (cited by prh47 on another thread) shows clearly that even when there is no loss, a contract can still be upheld.

What happens in other jurisdictions (eg the US) is essentially irrelevant. And issues surrounding deposits (and also fees in lieu) have been through the courts here many times. The UKBusinessForum thread linked above ended with a post essentially saying 'if you take this ahead, chances are you'll lose'

Unfortunately, having differences of timing makes the process highly asymmetric towards the school. If a sub-par (backup) school wishes to get good students, they make offers early with a short fuse and high price. By definition it is unfair. They make a lot of extra £££ from all the unfortunate parents whose kids eventually get offers at better schools!

It's a strange thing that housing offers can get pulled with no repercussion even if you have incurred costs, but here the school benefits from OP not accepting offer and getting someone else to take the place, which is why it is a matter for OFT.

It's a racket. We all know it.

Yes, it's a racket. Possibly unfair. But the whole system of education in the UK is unfair in terms of favouring the wealthy. I struggle to sympathise with someone at the uppermost end of the 'fair' scale tbh, and I say that as someone with DC's in London state and independent schools.

I don't think it's an issue for OFT. Independent schools are businesses whose results are largely judged by pupils' academic achievements. As you said yourself OP, it's a seller's market. By choosing to apply for and pay for what they offer you agree to do so on their terms, if they seem unfair to you, don't contract with them. A refundable deposit, or a negligible non-refundable sum would be a waste of time because everyone would play the system as you have done OP, and it would be chaotic and produce a less desirable cohort for the school. As I said up thread, I'm sure you'd be seeking legal advice if the school turned around and withdrew the place you wanted, giving it to a better candidate and giving you your cheque back. And you'd be right to do so.

sleepwhenidie Sat 11-Jun-16 13:05:13
Just supposing OP, that you needed the back up place that you paid the deposit for...and then you got a message from the school, 1.5 terms in advance, that actually the place was no longer available because a better candidate had turned up and applied...what would your response have been then? hmm Far from understanding I suspect!

Now that's a Daily Mail sad face story complete with option piece by katie-wots-her-gob bitching about how HARD it is to strive to be middle class when 'the system' is against you and how we all should vote Trump.

Clarrp And they might have no choice but to send DS to a state school. The horror!

OP your DS got into his first choice school, presumably an outstanding one. Be happy, celebrate it, I'm sure it wasn't easy. But let the £2k go because you won't be seeing it again, it did its job as a safety net.

sleepwhenidie

I know. Lol.

Our system is a little different here in Northern Ireland, but in terms of secondary education we are first class - our grammars are on equal par with our public schools and we (so far) refuse to subscribe to the comprehensive system (which is a fucking shambles and pit of despair)