Getting a refund of 13+ deposit in London

[February7]

I wonder if anyone can help me?

I paid a non-refundable deposit of £2000 to secure 13+ place for my child at a London day school. This school was one of 2 back up plan schools in case my child failed favoured school at CE.

Back up school 1 held entry exams earlier than all London day schools and wouldn't let me hold the offer we received for place 2 weeks until I got results of Back up school 2 exam. We landed up paying 2 deposits as back up school 1 was not for us.. Non-refundable... And then our child was successful at CE at favourite school.

As soon as I heard that my child had got into back up school 2 we called school 1 and told them 1.5 terms in advance that our cold would not be attending. They filled the space dozens of times over and refused to refund the deposit, in stark contrast to the other London school who returned the 2,000 saying it would be "immoral" to keep it as his school was full.

Can anyone suggest how I can approach this best? Or recommend a lawyer who could help?

I'd like to explore the legality of school not refunding a place-holding deposit of £2,000 even though

1. I have given 1.5 terms notice in February that my child would not start school in September.
2. The place were all filled
3. Is non-refundable deposit permitted in these circumstance, by legislation or charities regulation?

In my view this school has simply moved its entrance exams to before everyone else's cynically, knowing well that it is a back up school and using this system of taking deposits as a cash cow from London parents where there are few private schools around.

Any help/thoughts much appreciated

I was on the civil service team which took the Charities Act 2006 through parliament for the government and I guarantee you this has nothing to do with charity law. The fact the school is a charity is irrelevant.

I agree with others who say this is a moral, not legal, point. Sorry.

Non-refundable. Stop wasting your time. And probably your money if you engage a lawyer. You know well what the terms were when you signed up.

We walked away from a deposit from a prep school almost two years before the place was due to be taken up because of a change of location/circumstances. Never thought to ask for the money back - there is no way the school is remotely obliged to repay you. Move on.

AFAIK it's standard procedure. We had to lose two deposits to back up schools too. I knew this in advance. It never occurred to me to expect them back. There's a lot of admin in the exams process. All that marking and interviewing and offers out and waiting games on their side too. I didn't begrudge it.

So - is MN (aka the anonymous mob ) now the venue of choice for every rude, pushy, weight-throwing-about arriviste hoping for free legal representation on the strength of a nebulous rumour of national publicity?

So non refundable deposit really means "refundable if I decide I should get it back"? Hmm, good to know.

Your child got into the school you wanted. THAT'S your win. The price is forfeiting your deposit at a back up school.

Your other win is that although your 2nd backup school weren't legally obliged to refund your deposit, they did! Unfortunately instead of realising that you're bloody lucky to get that back, this has just given you a false sense of entitlement.

I would be reading the contract you're signing with your child's new school and making sure you are happy with those terms: they're binding.

I find it strange the morality of the school in keeping a non refundable deposit is questioned whilst one is quite comfortable with one's own morality in using the school as a fall guy to serve one's selfish ambition.

We lost deposit under similar circumstances too. It's pointless to argue the 'non-refundable' part.

In my DD's prep school a parent was 1 day late in giving notice for removal of their child. They had to pay an extra terms fee. It was non-negotiable. The school is quite kind in many ways but some rules can't be bent for one person without setting precedent for all.

I'll certainly be making sure I chose just one school after reading all this! London schools are another world by sounds. Peteranas - my guess is you work for a school, right!!!!! These schools are not fall guys for anyone - they make millions and have closed waiting lists each year!! Guess the UK have a different approach but how can it not be iimmoral to hear schools keep large chunks of cash every year when the schools are full - why are these deposits called non-refundable anyway, why aren't they refundable is place is left empty? At one school tour to find dB place - Barnes areas - head was telling us they were always full and wait lists closed. That school brochure had world famous artists (parents) teaching kids in extra class too... and a car park that looked like HROwen show room. London is so affluent, like another world. And the schools system is crazy, crazily expensive too. Valentine's breakfast making time. Have a great day everyone.

Usually the schools win these cases as the terms and conditions make it clear. Also people talking about "recent case law" should tell us what the case is because the latest case on "penalty clauses" upheld the clause (not a school case) and the person had to pay.

You can certainly try to argue that the terms were never sent to you although this thread is evidence you knew the deposit was non refundable. There is a good cases that the process of applications, the wages of staff who deal with application processes etc, the cost of interview time is not even covered by all the lost deposits in the system. I think the schools might win but try a small claim - you might get a sympathetic county court judge - You can sue on line with moneyclaimsonline but will have to pay a court fee for that.

I don't agree at all that the schools make millions. I have paid for 5 children at fee paying schools and every one of their schools makes no profits and every penny goes into teacher salaries (about 80% of the fees) and the rest into scholarships and the buildings.

Schools really don't make millions.

Requiring a non-refundable deposit (of only a fraction of one terms fees) when a place is definitively accepted is entirely normal.

As is not returning a payment which is clearly explained as 'non-refundable'

Just asked my valentine hubby and we looked at like 9 major London schools public accounts!!! Sorry guys, they are doing incredibly well. Like great businesses.... Delancey and others - just take a look everyone and then start a school in uk!!!!!

Cannot see why there is so much support on this thread for these non-refundable deposits when there are queues to fill all these places, and they are all filled. Should be refundable - no brained. Times have moved on since they suffered from no students. No one can get into London schools - they are all full!!! I know that February seems to have totally screwed up by agreeing to pay when the law means she had to. BUT, why are you all thinking it's ok for this fee for places to be non-refundable!! It's just crazy.... Saying that again, sorry!!!! What other business can get away with this deal. It's like just so unfair!!!!!!! Spoke to our Embassy liaison people about it last night at our pre Valentine party (suffering now!!!) - anyway, they say they p'd off with this too - don't think they should have to pay to cover it where spaces filled. Loads on this thread are lawyers and school people & got them on the case. They the ones who gonna be paying out 11* exams luckily. Though back home we get great schools and noone pays. Why can't the UK get that right!? So many kids excluded from good education by having this rich/poor system. It kind of stinks.

This was spot on:

I find it strange the morality of the school in keeping a non refundable deposit is questioned whilst one is quite comfortable with one's own morality in using the school as a fall guy to serve one's selfish ambition.

I like this crap:

back home we get great schools and noone [sic] pays

So please, do us all and yourself a favour, and go back home! If your level of grammar is anything to go by though, your schools aren't up to much!

Sorry! We do pay for schools at home. With our taxes. But you guys pay tax for schools. Pay for other schools, AND pay 25% of terms fees - like 2-3£k/5$ - that you don't get back just to protect yourselves if your kids don't get places at these too full schools. No wonder February's teacher thought that was wrong!!! I guess there are a lot of private school people on this thread trying to support that..... Watch Deutchland 83 everyone. Great TV!!!

Ahh. Septic. Idiot. Says it all!

”Peteranas - my guess is you work for a school, right!!!!!”

Wrong! Daphne, I don’t work for any schools whatsoever. I don’t have any personal interest in schools anymore as my DC have all gone through this stage.

”. . . they make millions and have closed waiting lists each year!”

I gather you’re not from the UK, Daphne, and even in your country, wherever it is, I reckon they have laws governing ridiculous outbursts like e.g. these schools “make millions” etc. Do you have any evidence of this?

Not all private schools make ‘profits’, never mind millions, out of fees and/or deposits - certainly not charitable schools! There are a lot of private schools struggling to survive from one year to the next.

” . . . how can it not be iimmoral to hear schools keep large chunks of cash every year when the schools are full - why are these deposits called non-refundable anyway, why aren't they refundable. . .”

Again, don’t be hysterical saying these schools keep large chunks of cash every year, whether full or not. Show me the evidence!

Even the supposedly richest and poshest school in the UK has to borrow millions to keep the school going!

In any case, nobody pressed a gun on anybody’s head and said, “Sign here . . . your deposit is not refundable”. The trouble is (more affluent) parents are taking the Mickey out of these schools by holding on to places that they do not intend to take up or as an insurance policy/safety net to fall back on should things not gone their way. Well, name me an insurance company that gives you free cover for absolutely no premium.

More than 90% of the UK population cannot pay private school fees or deposits of any kind and so go to state schools of which there are still plenty of good ones around some even rivalling private schools in academic standards. So what’s the problem?

As a matter of fact, what little excess money that is generated from school fees, etc. is ploughed straight back into the school for general maintenance and largely to be used for scholarships and especially bursaries so that poorer pupils have a chance to attend these schools. The question of their morality then can be taken out of the equation in this discussion.

”What other business can get away with this deal.”

I had a central heating engineer look at my home heating system that wasn’t working just recently. It turned out that the two small AA batteries in the thermostat had gone dead. A quick 3-minute job replacing the batteries (supplied by myself) and I was billed £250 - a sum I agreed to pay as a call-out charge plus repairs (if any) before the visit.

An application to a senior private school can take months, if not years, to conclude. It involves many, many hours of the school’s time. If successful, you only pay the deposit to demonstrate commitment. Alternatively, you can walk away without paying a penny. The non refundable bit is to stop people taking the Mickey of the school. Nothing sinister nor immoral . . .

Though back home we get great schools and noone pays. Why can't the UK get that right!?

We have this too. It's called state schools. 93% of kids go to them, including at least half of the kids who end up at Oxford and Cambridge.

Just for the record.

Isn't the key to this question in the wording "non- refundable deposit"? Hard to see how any county court judge (and you'd fall into the small claims track because of the amount of loss being claimed so won't recover any legal fees if you win so those would probably eat up most of your £2k anyway) would be likely to give judgment in your favour requiring the school to pay back said non-refundable deposit.

Wealth doesn't come into it really. If you pay two or three non- refundable deposits then you expect not to see that money again. Whether that makes you wealthy or just prudent is neither here nor there.

The thread is giving me a great laugh.

We like our schools in the UK and the system. One of the best things the UK has exported abroad is our system of common law. A contract is a contract. No corruption. No getting out of what you agree. Your word is your bond etc etc. We like that here.

What part of "non refundable" don't people understand? Civil code systems by the way have more of a system of ability to challenge unfair clauses. I have to explain that when I give law talks abroad in places like France. It is a very different contract law issue.

I did however give practical advice above so take that. Wait to see if you're sued and then try a defence as I outlined. The school might settle or walk away or you might get a sympathetic county court judge.

Just showing the definition of non refundable!

I'm not the one who has paid the deposit. If you all feel happy paying non-refundable deposits to get into full schools that's totally up to you. Seems pretty stupid to me!!

And to WaitingandHoping - trolling is a bit sad and pathetic & thanks for your suggestion. This "septic" won't be going home as you suggest. I love London, and everything about it!

OP

You could have done what I and quite a few of my fellow prep school parents have done and make sure your back up schools have offer acceptance dates after the publication of the first choice schools results. Problem solved .

When DS1 got a conditional offer from schools they included Terms and Conditions which made it clear the basis on which any deposit was paid. As I received the T&Cs prior to paying the deposit, then it would virtually impossible for me to argue that my deposit payment was not covered by those T&Cs whether or not I signed anything to that effect. By paying the deposit I have accepted the terms of the contract the school is offering me.

By paying the deposit in full knowledge that it was non-refundable you have accepted the non-refundable deposit term in your contract with the school. You don't need to sign anything to form a valid contract in English Law (in fact a contract doesn't even need to be in writing).

Another lawyer on this thread, who doesn't think you have a legal argument. Oh and on the charities front, the charity doesn't owe any duty to you but its trustees are duty bound to act in the best interests of the charity.

Daphne, OP had a choice. She could have, as many people will do, which is accept the place offered and forget about the other school. Instead she reserved her place at the first school and so loses the deposit as she remained on the wait list for the second school and was finally offered a place.

Its pretty normal practice. You book a flight, then change your plans. You lose your deposit. The service provider remained willing to provide the service, you chose not to take it. You pay for causing them a faff.

Note OP paid deposits for places to TWO schools whose places she then decided not to take up.

I feel more sorry for the child who might have been offered a place had OP not reserved it for her son. He has been sitting on a wait list and has probably paid a deposit for another school. They will lose this. Or for the school who find that their second, third and fourth reserves have chosen not to play the deposit game and have all accepted other schools, and so are trailing round either having to accept a candidate for whom the school will not be as good a fit, or having to have an empty place in the classroom. And with the initial reserves not going to their first choice school.

A friend is buying lunch next week. Her DC1 and 2 were both initially on WLs for their preferred very local, but selective, school, so lost two deposits elsewhere. DC3 has got a place first time. She sees this a money saving, hence the celebration. Private education is an expensive business. Registration fees and the odd lost deposit are a small part of the total cost.

Schools may differ. One local school is reputedly quite fierce about not refunding deposits. (A friend go the call that a wait list had moved an hour after the start of the summer term.) It is also used a lot as a back up for those really wanting places at a couple of good state schools. However it also has a reputation for offering good bursaries. I like this. People invest in a Plan B. Plan A works, so they end up wil a good free education, but their deposit may go towards helping fund another pupil who was not so lucky.