private v state - how to choose?

[Silvertap]

Hello, we're in the process of looking at schools for our 2 DC's. Both are only still at nursery and due to start over the next two years.

We both went to independent schools so it's a system we both know and have done very well out of.

We've done a fair bit (OK, maybe waaay too much) of research on the local independent schools. The one we've registered them for is the one we think is the best independent locally with the best chance of getting into the best senior school. We've looked at the senior schools to help that decision.

I want to look at the state options but I'm already floundering. Looking up our local primary and secondary the former doesn't even have an open day and the latter just has an open evening once a year in October. I also worry that if we went state with an idea of a secondary in mind we might not get in for catchment reasons. Is it ok just to ring these schools and ask to look round?

I'm aware that all sorts of things might come out in the wash meaning the senior school we are aiming at isn't right for the children as they get older.

We are very lucky that we can comfortably afford private. If we choose this route it shouldn't impact our quality of life or opportunities that much. We lint live extravagant lives now and I can't see that changing.

Then we start discussing whether we'd be better off investing the money for our kids and when you add it up its such a lot of money. Is it worth it basically?

Sorry for waffling! I guess my questions are:

1. How to judge state schools when k don't know the system
2. if we can comfortably afford it is it a bit of a no brainer to go private?

I

However an average/fall back private will be head and shoulders above a poor state school.

I have to disagree, some poor private schools are worse than some poor state schools and there is less oversight, so parents might not know as quickly what is really going on. Oh and State schools do not close overnight with no warning (at the worst they get a new head brought in and planned closure).

Yes you can ring to ask to visit. Also look for summer fayres etc anyone can go usually and you will get a chance to see the pupils/parents/school.

Do you know anyone at pre school classes with older children at the schools.

All you can do is compare the state school you realistically have a chance of getting v private you can get to.

When people say benefits of private lots say oh my state school offers that but if your option doesn't then that is what matters.

Do you work? I've found dd's private school to be very helpful. Things like being able to have her go in aftercare no notice if I'm stuck at work. The day is longer so I can work 9-4 no childcare, extra curricular activities for all ages. No random training days or quirks like finishing at 2pm on last day of term. Holiday childcare offered. Small classes dd is in a big class of 17 with a teacher and ta. I've not felt need to top up - I'm happy dd is getting attention and being pushed. When she was younger she was read with daily by a member of staff. Music tuition done as part of school day no need to take her after school. The little ones have dance with lady coming in from local dance school. Dd is yr 5 and they are doing 11+ prep as a small group within school day.
You are a customer so if I have ever had an issue it has been addressed. Teaching Staff very available to talk. They also seem to be tested more do nfer tests/reading age so you get info with how she is really doing compared to national average.

You "judge" a school in the normal way. When looking at state grammars for DS, we considered:

OFSTED, exam results GCSE and A level, uni entrance, subjects on offer, extra curricular, journey time, cultural fit, and crucially we walked round the schools and looked at the other kids there to see if our kid would fit in.

Our DS is exceptionally talented at a well known sport they don't do at the SS he goes to, and in the end, this wasn't a decider for us as he plays it still quite effectively and enough outside school.

His state school offers triple science, advanced maths, Latin, rugby, chess and all that shizzle.

What are the state options like where you are? What, if anything, would he need to do to qualify for entry to them?

DS was offered a sports scholarship to a top 10 indie, but we didn't even consider it as what's the point in paying 90% of the fees when we have such a great state option?

Agree you judge on a case by case basis (as far as snapshot view is accurate) irrespective of whether state or private. But as others have said (and i can see with my own eyes we'd get here) if you go for a decent private secondary, you fairly automatically get smaller classes, strong work ethic, better facilities and longer school day with less disruption (behaviour issues, supply teachers in etc). If we had the £ to continue, would do so without question and this is after looking round all state and private options.

Not rtft so only replying to your OP. Ring the state school and ask to look around. They are likely to accommodate you. You might be pleasantly surprised. Our local state primary had its own swimming pool, playing fields, pond, allotments, music suite, library, art rooms etc.
If money is no option, you need to evaluate the schools individually: what do they offer? Where do pupils go on to? What optional activities exist in terms of music, sport etc? Do they excel in subjects that matter to you and your DP? And in subjects that seem to be of interest to your DC?

A friend lives in a town that includes one excellent superselective grammar, another fantastic comprehensive (with tight MC catchment), two boarding private schools (with attached prep schools) with a comprehensive ability intake. The results may be as good or far better in the state schools, the extracurricular activities are also available in or out of the state schools. So basically from the educational package there seems no compelling reason to go private unless the DCs want to do a lot of sport or other activities within school with just their school friends. However she also comments (half jokingly half not) that the older pupils from the private schools just seem 'glossier' and superficially as a group better looking than their MC state school equivalents. I know what she means from visits when driving past said schools.
Does that apparent glossiness come just from paretental money or the private environment and does it help with post university job applications?

I often wonder whether the real advantage if any of attending a private school (the non top ten kind) is actually apparent only after university when in the job market. There are undoubted soft skills and a network of contacts to be had from many non academic secondary private schools which even MC state schools don't have. A parent can reject that but comparison between state and private based on curriculum, extracurricular package and academic outcomes may be too simplistic.

I chose state, guided by my conscience. I believe private education just perpetuates grotesquely privilege and advantage. I think it is worse than doping in sport. That's why I would always chose state education.

and besides, i would never, ever want to sound like this stuck up t~~~

www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11924357/I-hate-the-idea-of-private-schools-but-still-send-my-kids-to-one.html

"But don't believe that they do. There is a lot of utter rot spoken about British independent schools, I say in much genuineness. What is a private school in this country? Basically, more or less, it is something which you call great and perform all of the associated bells and whistles around, every day or week for those school years. (Then of course, there may be the everafter also). It's in your attitude. That's what a private school is. The worst part is that the children find themselves having to act the same way, having that same attitude. It may well be there is nothing more to a British private school than it being that which you call great.

I look at the plethora of old Etonians in the Tort government, ministers and advisers and secretaries, and all those of private schools who are our leaders and I think, what better advertissment could there be not to go with private education in this country?"

from the comments from teh article above. Spot on.

My mum, passing our local private school, all pinnacled and mock-Gothic: "No wonder that they all grow up to believe that they are lords of the universe".

I would absolutely agree that a certain arrogance / glossiness / self belief is fostered by many private schools (Deo's posting style, for example, is at the caricature end of this particular spectrum). I would also agree that this particular 'self presentation' is capable of carrying many alumni of such schools further than their 'actual ability / qualifications' deserve, and some people will (whether acknowledged by themselves or not) be buying this aspect of private education - it is a characteristic of a particular 'tribe' that habitual private school purchasers will recognise as containing 'people like us'.

A friend of mine who had been privately educated was somewhat shocked that a local Prep was now "full of builders' children".
Most of her children ended up at state schools.

I would…..
a) apply for local primary school and start there. Your dc will be 4 years old.

b) see how your child turns out. Academic? Creative? Sporty? Then look at the schools that offer the best fit for each child.

By joining local groups, you will pick up info about the local options both state and private.

As I say, can someone explain to me the difference in morality between doping sport and sending your child to a private school?

(Not quite fair. I supposedly have a mensa level IQ of 158, got best A levels in my private school in the NE where most children didn't go to university at all, university entrance scholarship at 17, won law prizes. I don't think I've been spending my life conning people that I am brighter than I am but am some kind of private school thicko).

teacherwithtwokids I agree that a disadvantage of that sort of private education can be a self satisfied clique who find it difficult to break out of the confines they know. However the reverse also happens or in some cases people define themselves by intellectual prowess without translating that into successful or ambitious careers. The alumni of many middle of the road public schools seem to achieve exciting entrepreneurial careers or successful businesses which contribute to the UK's economy rather than safe middle of the road careers. Whether that is through their education or network I don't know but I suspect a bit of both.

Deo, my life actually mirrors yours to a slightly uncanny degree, with the difference that I was elsewhere in the country, I have a PhD, and my prizes don't happen to be in law.

It is the arrogance of your posting style, the 'I am right, you are wrong, I am better than you and do not have to take anything that anyone else says into account' that sums up a particular private school attitude to me. Most very intelligent people I know - the Maths Olympian, the Nobel prize winner - are more thoughtful, more willing to consider others' points of view on their genuine merits, and significantly less brash.

Send your child to the school that fits, whether private or state it doesn't matter. Neither one is better per se, it's the school and getting as near to a perfect fit as you can.

Some children have a brilliant expensive education and come out as postmen or builders and not the slightest bit interested in pursuing wealth and career.

Some children work hard are dedicated and come out of state school eager to make money and have a great career.

NewLife you seem to ascribe to the fatalistic view, what a DC will be they will be whether a middle of the road state education or private middle of the road public school. I would agree with some extreme characters although even those are influenced along the way. However IMO what you say is probably a bit naive for the greater majority of DCs. Perhaps the private education translates into a greater ability to take risks and have the soft skills and contacts to make them work, whether as an entrepreneurial baker or trying to be a CEO.

lovetheholidays,

But perhaps the ability to take risks is actually based on the knowledge that there is a family financial cushion to fall back on? So those who know that they cannot be 'bailed out by Daddy' might go for a 'less risky' option, while those who know that there is a safety net are able to take risks with more impunity?

So i other words the being able to take risks comes from the same root as being able to attend a private school - family money - rather than the private school causing the willingness to take risks directly IYSWIM?

The alumni of many middle of the road public schools seem to achieve exciting entrepreneurial careers or successful businesses which contribute to the UK's economy rather than safe middle of the road careers. Whether that is through their education or network I don't know but I suspect a bit of both.

I'd suggest this is primarily down to funding from parents - be it start up business costs, free rent, lack of student debt.

x post teacher

I suspect many of the contacts may well be family contacts also, rather than personal contacts by the privately educated child themselves.

So to see the 'pure' effect of the school, you would have to look at the outcomes for children from 'atypical' backgrounds for the private school, where original family money and contacts aren't part of the equation.

Yes both of you, I say that in my previous posts that I am sure it contributes. However I know of DCs of MC parents (with no more money than those who have DCs at state school) who still seem more adventurous in their careers in their twenties and thirties. Again they may have to rely on their contacts but perhaps their public school or the 'glossiness' from their public school made them better able to network.
I just think that parents should not bit simplistic about what a public school education may deliver and that academic outcomes and extracurricular activities may not be the only ingredients.

OP, call your local primaries and ask to be shown round.

They will be different from your memories of school 20 years ago, but it's definitely interesting to go round a few and see the similarities and differences, and compare them to the independent school that you like.