private v state - how to choose?

[Silvertap]

Hello, we're in the process of looking at schools for our 2 DC's. Both are only still at nursery and due to start over the next two years.

We both went to independent schools so it's a system we both know and have done very well out of.

We've done a fair bit (OK, maybe waaay too much) of research on the local independent schools. The one we've registered them for is the one we think is the best independent locally with the best chance of getting into the best senior school. We've looked at the senior schools to help that decision.

I want to look at the state options but I'm already floundering. Looking up our local primary and secondary the former doesn't even have an open day and the latter just has an open evening once a year in October. I also worry that if we went state with an idea of a secondary in mind we might not get in for catchment reasons. Is it ok just to ring these schools and ask to look round?

I'm aware that all sorts of things might come out in the wash meaning the senior school we are aiming at isn't right for the children as they get older.

We are very lucky that we can comfortably afford private. If we choose this route it shouldn't impact our quality of life or opportunities that much. We lint live extravagant lives now and I can't see that changing.

Then we start discussing whether we'd be better off investing the money for our kids and when you add it up its such a lot of money. Is it worth it basically?

Sorry for waffling! I guess my questions are:

1. How to judge state schools when k don't know the system
2. if we can comfortably afford it is it a bit of a no brainer to go private?

I

Please god let our next mayor be an Ernest Bevan Comprehensive alumnus.

My husband went prep, public school, Cambridge and feels our children are immensely privileged to walk to their local (requires improvement) state. He'd never stepped foot in a state school before going on an open day there.

But then he is an open minded intelligent man who can see outside his own experience. Of course I'd never have married him otherwise...

Op go look think. I think you've v little to lose by starting out in state. My son is in a selective private London secondary from said failing primary. He's ahead of his prep contemporaries in some areas, behind in others.

Beaufort, exactly. Which is why I have included the word 'local'.

If Deo / Xenia said that [all?] her local privates are better than her local state schools, or that if the OP lived in a similar part of London to her, then the private schools are better and might suit the OP better than the state ones, then I would have absolutely no problem with her stance. It is the blanket assertion, as if this applies throughout the country, that I take issue with.

Ah. I don't think London is the same as the rest of the country.

I would also say that, as a general rule, wherever you are in the country, the gap between what state and private sectors offer is smaller - and less important in terms of a child's long term education - than at secondary. Especially for the infant years, which is what the OP is asking about.

The only caveat would be if you are looking for highly competitive entrance to a particular private school at 11+, or in particular at 13+, when choosing a school that specifically prepares for those exams - especially 13+ as it is not a transition that really exists n the state sector - might be worthwhile, more in terms of peace of mind and 'knowledge of the process' than because such preparation is always 'necessary'

Deo, I have also often wondered whether the figures that you quote for independent schools are actually massively skewed by a very small number of schools?

So are there are a few schools - Eton, Westminster, Winchester - which contribute the vast bulk of that 'advantage of private education' (possibly because of the old boy's network in e.g. politics), while private schools from the second or third rank, in other parts of the country, actually confer no advantage at all over attending the local state option?

Btw, the previous Achbishop was, of course, a state school boy.

Agree that you should choose on the school not whether it's state or private, assuming you can afford the latter comfortably. We use both with no qualms whatsoever. Some private schools that I've visited have really not been worth it- poorly trained teachers, poor facilities, merely slightly smaller classes to offer and the questionable kudos of a private school.

However the one attended currently by one of my dc has phenomenal facilities, great teachers, smallish classes, a full and flexible school day, fab range of lessons and sports etc etc. Nothing similar locally in the state sector. If we could afford it more comfortably, we would continue but when the time comes shall jump ship to the state secondary sector which seems to offer a similarly good academic education but facilities not as good, classes bigger and the overall ethos of the school is - imho - less focussed on developing and driving the full child as an individual. That is a huge benefit for me of private education, speaking from direct, current experience of both sectors.

So, to be frank, in answer to OP's 2nd question, I'd say it is a no-brainier to go private. This is assuming that the private/state schools concerned are of a similar quality, of course. Private does not automatically mean better at all. But it often does!

I don't know. I don't always go for the "best" in everything - that can be a waste of money. I usually ask myself whether the extra I am paying is actually worth it for what I'm getting. You don't need a private education to feel fulfilled in life, to be successful, to become a worthwhile member of society, to be happy, to have worthwhile experiences, or even to "reach your potential." It's nice to have the money to have choices, but I like to see what the choices are before I decide.

This is a really interesting thread - we are currently trying to decide whether to change to private.

DD went to an absolutely fabulous state school - out of catchment. When it was DS turn the school was oversubscribed due to his year being a really high birth year and the waiting list was too long so no point in me appealing. He got into our catchment school and I moved DD as I couldn't do the school run for the 2 of them miles apart. Its really tricky decision. I am also vaguely thinking about home schooling.

I live in outer London, daughter went to NLCS etc so yes that is a top 5 school. However I went to a private school in the NE and up there there is a much much much bigger difference and superiority of private schools to state as we abolished grammars in about 1970 where I am from so there is no choice of those.

Anyway if they can afford it and have a good private school they could use and went to private schools themselves then I cannot see that there is any issue at all - pay fees. It is also morally better. If you can afford fees and yet don't pay them in a sense you are robbing the poor of money they really need.

I don't know so much about primary, but I'd send my dc to a good private school over a good state school any day if I could afford to (which I can't).
I went to a state grammar myself and have been a teacher for 20 years -10 years in a variety of state comps, 10 years in one girls' private school. None of the comps in which I've worked have been remotely in the same league as the private school in any way at all in terms of the opportunities and learning environment they offered. And two of them were rated outstanding, the others good. As far as teaching environment goes, it was like a totally different job.

I'd be surprised if a successfully privately educated parent would be impressed if they were able to be a fly on the wall on a normal school day at the vast majority of state secondaries, however good a spiel the schools put on at open days. Depressing, but that's my experience.

I know you're asking about primary, OP, but I imagine it's easier to get your child into a private secondary from a private prep.

That's brave Zorigami! There is no way I could cope with homeschooling.

It's interesting how many of you are saying early years aren't as important as secondary - what about the saying "give me the boy till he is 7 and I'll show you the man"?!

From some of the earlier sites mentioned I think there's 2 schools we'd have a good chance of getting into that I'll try to book to go and visit. It will be interesting that's for sure.

We have children at local state primary. We could have afforded private and may switch at 7. Things I'd look out for are:

High performing peer group if you think your child is bright.
Quality of playtimes - and the philosophy of that time. Is it just a break from formal lessons or the perspective that play is important?
How does the school help teachers to teach better?
Easy journey. Lovely when someone else drops dc in school, or pops in after. And possible because school is only 5 mins away.
Homework/reading - how much and what parental involvement is required?
Differentiated learning - how do they cope with children that are more/less able?

We may switch at 7+ to avoid the 11+, because if child is bright then specialist languages/ science would be beneficial, and because the faster pace of academically selective might suit.

I would second OFSTED reports. Also, our school immediately corrected the few negative points.

I understand the OP's position. I was privately educated and had little understanding of current state schooling. However, a visit to the school and and open minded attitude was best.

Our experience of primary school has been good. Where extra curricular activities fell short, we found plenty of local resources and clubs and widened their and our social life beyond the school.

The most impressive thing about the school was it's ability to challenge and develop bright children. The teachers are young, work hard for little pay, have large class sizes with a wide range of abilities and attitudes. This didn't stop them from differentiating and pushing for the potential in each kid. Frankly, they do a job that I wonder if many private school teachers could cope with at all.

The proof of the pudding is that child 1 sailed through all the 11+ paper sat with offers from every school. The best fit turned out to be one of the "big name academic" schools.

What this taught me is that the national curriculum in state secondary schools is fundamentally decent and that there are great teachers delivering it. This might also be true for secondary schools and it may be that the best fit for the next one goes that way. Fee paying or state is not really what's important, the fit of your child to a particular school is all that matters.

mercifulTehlu

This is really about primary school teaching and curriculum. I think the secondary school system and pupil age is a very different thing and can't really be extrapolated back. Teaching a 13 year old ten subjects for GCSE is very different to an 8 year old doing maths, english and a bit of general studies (paraphrasing).

"early years aren't as important as secondary"

No, I am saying that early years are vital - but that the gap between what private and state schools offer in those first years is less, and in fact in some ways a really good state primary with a fully play-based curriculum in Reception is better (in terms of longer term learning development) than the approach for that age found in some private schools.

In later years, things like wide-ranging extra curricular activities on site, additional facilities such as science labs, specialist teachers, and the specialist teaching towards specific private school entrance exams, become more important. In the early years, the advantages of having local friends to drop round to for tea and meet in the park may be more important than these, and may well be found in the local state school.

Although, of course, sipping champagne on the primary school lawn whilst listening to the Reception year children play Handel is also important.

But which Handel work? Is the Water Music acceptable (if a little hackneyed, especially when performed by massed recorders), or should we be looking for a complete rendition of the Messiah? Or is the school deemed to be failing because they do not have a harpsichord player in the Year 1 class who can accompany the wind and string instruments in the Harpsichord concerto?

And what if they don't even have a harpsichord, but try to get away with an electronic synthesiser?

(Or can't even spell synthesiser? )

Welkom to hour conset - we hop you enjoy it.

I see what you mean Teacher. Thanks for explaining.

If I could afford it then I would put dd in private. She's in reception at my old school which was fantastic but has recently gone downhill and the quality of teaching and leadership has had them downgraded massively by ofsted.
The class is full to the brim, cramped and I feel dd is coasting along in a class of 30 with several with behavioural issues ( obviously can have those at any school I know ) but feel that I've made a mistake sending her there and we're only 5 months in. There are no extra curricular activities until juniors and the school has over 70% of children on the sen register.
I have a ds with sen so am understanding of how hard it can be but just seems a lot to me.
If I won the lottery the first thing I would change would be the school.
That's just my take on it.

Can't resist adding my twopence. It soo depends on the schools and the children! A good state is better than an average/ fall back private school, but an outstanding/selective private will be better than an outstanding state school. However an average/fall back private will be head and shoulders above a poor state school. I am only talking about secondaries but I would imagine this applies to primaries as well.

Personally I think primary education is just as important as secondary. Primary schools provide the building blocks of a child's education, and give them a love (or hatred - which I've seen in some children) of learning. I honestly don't believe that can be over-emphasised.

If the start isn't good, then a child has a lot to catch up on. But I do agree that an excellent state primary is often just as good, if not better, than a private prep.

Not so keen on Handel by the way - how about Beethoven?