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ALL NEW; WHITGIFT/TRINITY/DULWICH/ALLEYNS 10+/11+ 2016

967 replies

MrsPatmore · 06/10/2015 10:35

Thought I'd go ahead and start. Found the old threads really interesting and would welcome ongoing input from those who've been through the whole process.
Ds in Year 5 and we are looking at a mixture of grammar schools and indies for 11+ Whitgift recommended this year - we've been told there is a drive to raise academic standards. We're going to the Open afternoon on 10th Nov.

OP posts:
Berora · 15/02/2016 20:53

I just remember budgeting for ca. 15k a year for all things school-related when taking up a place at W. Stupidly, it didn't occur to us that school fees might rise ahead of inflation...

montlieu · 16/02/2016 10:27

hello,

we have had 4 offers at Trinity, Whitgift, Emanuel and Alleyn. our boy strongly prefers W and T. but we are also waiting to hear from the Sutton Grammars offers (Wallington and Sutton- he didn't pass Wilson).

is anyone in the same situation ? I'm weighting the boys indies against the state grammar and how we justify the expense as we are seeing the grammars are good options. I should say that we're not british and come for a country where everyone is state educated, so probably different background.

thank you for your views

Ladymuck · 16/02/2016 11:31

Hi Montlieu,

So it strikes me that amongst your 6 possible options, in order to narrow it down you will want to consider state v independent, and single-sex v co-ed. The former has the most impact on you, the latter on your son!

For most families the decision of state v independent is fairly straightforward - independent is financially out of reach. These will include many professionals such as teachers and salaried GPs. At the other end there are many very wealthy families who only look at independent schools. And then there are others in the middle who have to look at the sums more carefully. For many years the Sutton grammars have been seen as a good free alternative to the independent sector.

It is worth looking at the current educational landscape. There have been significant cuts to funding (mainly 6th form, but knocks on to whole school) in the state sector, and funding going forward will be flat. So in order to give any teacher a pay rise, another salary must reduce (for most schools 80% of the budget will be salaries). Where possible schools are getting the cheapest teachers. In London there is a severe teacher shortage in some key subjects, especially science, and the Sutton grammars are in Outer London, so some teachers will work a few miles in in order to get Inner London weighting, others will be tempted by the independent sector. You can look up the accounts of both Wally Boys and SGS online. Finances are tight. Both have increased numbers (as they are paid per pupil). It is likely that at some point they will have to go into a multi-academy trust (as the girls grammars have) in order to further save costs. Wally Boys is setting up a free school in Croydon (2018 I think, possibly 17) so that will be a distraction for the leadership. It may help the school finances. Worth keeping an eye on job ads too - certainly Wally boys was advertising for general humanities teachers, teaching Geography, History and RS, rather than a specialist. Of the 3 Sutton grammar schools, Wilson is the most secure financially.

At the same time pupil numbers have increased significantly ( Croydon has added an additional 76 forms of entry at primary level in the last 5 years - other boroughs will have done similar). However the number of independent places have not. In theory with greater competition it should now be more difficult to get into an independent school - certainly immediately after the banking crisis, it did appear that some schools were open to almost anyone who could pay full fees, but I think last year there were boys who got into Wilsons but not Trinity.

Whitgift and Trinity will both have new heads in the near future, which inevitably brings change.

If you have the option of a grammar and would otherwise have to make sacrifices, then grab the grammar place, at least until GCSE - you can make a different decision at 6th form when the quality of teaching may matter more.

Single-sex v Co-ed

The obvious point to make is that in a co-ed school somewhere between 40-60% of the school will be female. If your son prefers the company of boys, this tends to reduce his pool of friends. On the other hand if your boy enjoys the company of both boys and girls, then he won't find as many girls int he single-sex schools. So the singlesex schools do provide a wider pool of friends, from the very testosterone-fuelled, through to the gentle and quirky. Given the range of clubs at the schools, especially the independent schools, your son is likely to find similar minded boys. Boys at co-ed schools who lie at the extremes, may find that more difficult, though co-eds seem to be happy social places. But I think you have to look at your son, and what environment suits him. I have had my sons in different schools, one co-ed, one single-sex as that suits their personalities.

Other thoughts

They're all academic schools, so a bright boy will find peers at any of them. The independents will probably have a wider range of ability certainly on entrance, especially Emmanuel as it has the juniors coming up, though you probably won't spot this by GCSE. There is a fair bit of movement across all of these schools at 6th form, so a decision at this stage still allows for movement later. And as every such thread on MN states - do factor in transport, and give your son an easy commute - it will make a huge difference when GCSEs come round.

As you're holding onto 4 independent places, and will be waiting for grammars, it would be polite and kind to those on the waitlists to release the schools as soon as you have ruled them out.

Supermummy1674 · 16/02/2016 11:56

Dear ladymuck my daughter is at wally girls in year 10 do u think I should consider moving her to independent for A-Levels?

Ladymuck · 16/02/2016 12:02

At the risk of taking this thread off topic, I would expect most pupils and parents to consider their options for 6th form afresh. Some will be ready for a change, others will have particular courses in mind. Many will stay where there are. But it should be a considered decision, depending on what the pupil wants at 6th form.

Supermummy1674 · 16/02/2016 12:12

She wants to stay but conscious of if that's the right decision for her future. Would the teaching b better at indie

Ladymuck · 16/02/2016 12:21

Depends on the indie and the subjects. If you know what subjects then look around the schools and see what is on offer. Check what is on offer where she is. Make an informed decision. 6th form is quite specific - how good are the departments she will be working in.

Supermummy1674 · 16/02/2016 12:32

Thank you ladymuck
She's looking at 3 sciences and maths

whyamisoindecisive · 16/02/2016 13:36

Hi Ladymuck and other parents already at these schools, can I also ask your advice as we are also holding offers and finding it very difficult to decide. My ds has offers for 11+ for T, C and W (music award). I think we have more or less ruled out W due to the extra cost, although the music award is tempting, as he is keen to keep up his instrument. He is a pretty easy going all rounder and we purposely didn't encourage favourites during the process to avoid disappointment so now we are having to weigh up the pros and cons.

The obvious difference is coed or single sex until sixth form. DS doesn't really care either way and I don't think it will matter to him in the slightest. We are more local to C, he can get the train to E Croydon for T and is quite independent, so travel isn't really an issue. He likes both equally and will have friends at both. I loved the ethos at T and I think he would have a great time there. I worry though that he may just stick around the middle as he is keen and improving all the time but still needs mentoring academically. I also worry he won't be able to carry on with his music as won't be able to get a look in with the music scholars? (he'd like to keep on doing his gradings and play in a band). C seem to have a particularly good track record on the value added and taking good students and getting excellent results. I wonder whether in the long run he might do better there exams-wise? Would he also get more of a look in there with sports and music? It doesn't excite and enthuse me quite as much as T though, but I am trying to decide where would be best for him, not me :)

I know we are extremely lucky to have 3 offers and he has done very well. I know he would be fine at any of the three schools really so it is just splitting hairs for us and how to make the final decision (my heart says T but I don't want to regret giving up C). So I guess my question is, in your experience which would be the better fit for an enthusiastic good all-rounder? Which school would get the best out of him and maximise academic potential? Where is he more likely to be able to keep his music going and get in some sports teams if he's not scholarship level going in?

Ladymuck · 16/02/2016 14:09

Does he come from a state or prep school? Trinity takes in around half and half, but Caterham is very prep heavy. This has quite an impact sports wise, as the vast majority of boys will have played rugby and cricket for 3 or 4 years previously. If you come in without having played before (and some of the smaller preps don't play rugby) then you won't have a chance, and typically the state pupils/small prep boys are the ones who are left not in teams, not part of the social mix on Saturdays etc, which does very little for their integration into the social side of school. Obviously that can also be an issue at T- players in the lower teams won't get as many games, but because of the larger entry point from state schools at 11+ that is less of an issue socially, and also the staff are geared up to actually teach the sports from scratch. Also most parents are joining the school at a similar time, and you will get to know other parents watching matches. Again the 11+ intake at C will be dominated by their own prep pupils.

Music at T is obviously superior and I wouldn't be put off by the music scholars. Boys develop at different rates, and T is full of opportunities. Scholars selected on a day when they are 10 may have different interests by 14 and 16. Music at C suffered when Mr Thompson left, and had a rocky couple of years after that when the new Director of Music vanished overnight, having caused a number of peripatetic staff to leave. They don't seem very skilled at encouraging their musicians to continue.

Both schools are strong academically. C does have the wider ability range on entry, including from their prep, and so probably does top the value-added.

So if he has already played rugby and cricket before then C may be a good match, especially if you are local. However there are many boys who do commute from Caterham to T, so he won't be the only one in that direction. And it is important to be comfortable with the ethos of the school - though under the previous heads, I would say that the schools had a similar ethos. I'm afraid that I don't know much about the new heads. To be honest, it sounds as if he should do well at either school - easy going all rounders usually do!

whyamisoindecisive · 16/02/2016 14:44

prep, plays Cricket and Hockey, as you say, but not Rugby. He would be more than happy to try Rugby but knows he doesn't stand a chance against the established players, which I think is a shame, on principle really, at 10. In that respect maybe T appeals as I like the idea of a more level playing field and starting from scratch.

Your post has been very helpful, thank you, and reassures me that there is indeed "not much in it" for him. I think we will go to the offer-holder days as I imagine that's a very different thing when you know you actually can go there, and see how he feels after that. I am hoping he will get a definite pull one way or the other and I will let him decide -as I don't think I can!

Ladymuck · 16/02/2016 15:02

Yes, it is definitely worth another visit when you can finally kick the tyres. I suspect that his current duties won't allow it, but it would obviously be great to be able to hear from the new T head for comparison. But a visit also gives you an idea of who else is considering too.

whyamisoindecisive · 16/02/2016 15:16

Actually there was an invite to meet the new head at T in the offer letter pack I think and the existing head told us at interview we would be invited to meet him this month.

Ladymuck · 16/02/2016 16:31

That's good. I suppose the other obvious difference is the boarding element. Caterham is a 24/7 environment and there will often be something on at school most nights. It does give it a very busy vibe - shared by T during the day of course, but going on later at C. Again, not a deciding factor I suspect, just a difference. But it is a nice decision to have, and hopefully your visits will help you decide.

Supermummy1674 · 16/02/2016 16:40

Hi everyone has everyone confirmed their preferences? If not any idea wen u will b doing so. I'm still deciding and can't decide between W & T. Any thoughts anyone what you've decided.

Supermummy1674 · 16/02/2016 17:07

Ladymuck y did u decide on T?

Ladymuck · 16/02/2016 17:24

Ultimately it is about choosing the one where you feel your son will be happiest. They're both good schools with excellent facilities and results. But they do have a different approach and ethos, and it is important as parents that the school ethos is in line with your own. Ask about discipline - what sort of offences get punished, and how. Ask how easy it is to contact staff, and tutors. How easy is it to track homework and grades. Visit again and see which one suits your son best.

ElevenPlusSoon · 16/02/2016 18:45

Ladymuck, I am told that being a music scholar in W means a lot of concerts or competitions, some needs traveling abroad, these are all very expensive and cost a lot besides the fee. Can you share these information if you have? Thanks.

Ladymuck · 16/02/2016 18:58

Transport is included for the UK concerts, most of which are either local or in London. The school will also arrange the transport and insurance of instruments. The main cost will be for parents and friends to travel and attend. Overseas trips are an additional expense, but are typically subsidised and are not compulsory, though of course the school will encourage your son to go, especially if he is a key player. That said, some of these tours are a fantastic experience for young players. For boys who are exceptional, music scholarships can be increased as they go up the school.

ElevenPlusSoon · 16/02/2016 19:05

Ladymuck, Thank you very much!

Supermummy1674 · 16/02/2016 19:21

Thank you - ladymuck
My son is quite sensitive but I would like that to change when he starts secondary. Both my children need that push to come out of their comfort zone and not sure if T will do that. I found that W would push him to his full potential which is what I want for him. What's your take on T regarding this?

Ladymuck · 16/02/2016 19:30

There are a number of current Trinity parents on here who will be able to give their view. As well as a number of W parents who could give a view on how the more sensitive boy gets on.

aworkinprogress · 16/02/2016 21:05

Supermummy1674 Thanks for that.
Hope your DS moves up the reserve list for T and gets the bursary this year.
Having spoken to someone else one DS currently at W and one DS due to go in this year, it seems that music scholarships are also potentially harder to get at 10+ and more of a sense of competition among schools can help. We only did W this time but given T has the stronger reputation for music, makes sense to consider and possibly also DC.

Berora Yes it is probably worth us talking to admissions direct...it's highly likely that we'll go through the process again for 11+ with grammar school options at least then a possibility as well.

Berora · 16/02/2016 22:52

Aworkinprogress, it would make sense, wouldn't it. If your DS tries again next year, he will have a benefit of knowing what to expect in the exams; that alone may help him get a higher score and you may end up with not only a bursary, but also an academic scholarship. The worst case scenario, you will have the same offers on the plate next year as at the moment, but will have to pay one year less fees, or might opt for a grammar school. Admissions team at W have always been very helpful when I spoke to them, so they should give you a clear answer to your questions. Good luck!

Supermummy1674 · 17/02/2016 02:09

aworkinprogress - thanks too!
I'm considering to do 11 plus next year too.
The fact he's done really well this year we have another chance to do even better next year and get an academic scholarship.

Berora thank you too!