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How can I encourage my daughters to consider traditionally male dominated careers?

298 replies

meinus · 16/02/2015 12:49

I've been trying to expose my daughters to career areas that are traditionally male dominant. I wanted to share this video because I like how it simply shows a young woman 'as' an engineer and they liked the fun machine setting: www.youtube.com/watch?v=XppH0LJ7c4E
Has anyone seen any other good videos like this that I could show them?

OP posts:
TalkinPeace · 10/03/2015 20:43

Mathanxiety
I told my DCs (all of them) that I would not pay for a degree in English Lit, MFL, History, or any other subject that did not involve a large dollop of maths or science.
So if one of your children had the maths ability of a teacup but was fantastic at costume design you'd have forced them to do science?
Really?

My views on non stem subjects are well known
BUT
where kids have a skill in one area its madness to ignore it.

In my family, one of us did an entirely arts / design type degree that made the parents wince but it was RIGHT for that child and led to a good career until children and relocation came along.

ErrolTheDragon · 10/03/2015 21:02

Absolutely. We're a pair of scientists who seem to have begat an engineer, and I'm very pleased by that, but if her talents had been for languages or history or literature we'd have wanted her to fulfil her potential. Or 'his' if it had been a DS, if it had been a 'female dominated' career. Isn't that the point of this thread really - that all kids should be allowed to consider any pathway that suits them?

TalkinPeace · 10/03/2015 21:06

One of my clients has been a great disappointment to his father, uncles and grandfather.
They are all builders and tradesmen.
He is a hairdresser. he's not gay btw
He does hipster beards in a trendy bit of London, loves it and makes a good living.

Stereotypes cut all ways.

mathanxiety · 10/03/2015 23:22

It wasn't specifically a maths or science degree that I encouraged. They were welcome to look at finance, architecture, any branch of engineering, computer science, accounting, applied maths, mathematical modeling, biomechanics, astronomy, actuarial science, geology, any lab science, neuroscience, economics, statistics, etc., etc. STEM is a very wide field.

I don't believe anyone has enough innate talent in anything, or lack thereof ('the maths ability of a teacup') that would make a certain career path inevitable. That sort of thinking has created the current divide where men go into STEM subjects and careers and women do the 'caring career' thing. Accompanying that divide is the regrettable disparity of income between the two general areas.

As well as telling them I would not pay for degrees in English Lit and its ilk, I encouraged the DDs not to pick a career area on the assumption that their income would provide a second family income, with a partner providing the main income. It is hard to guarantee anything about a career when you set off to university with a general aim in mind, but STEM careers tend to pay well and offer the chance of employment upon graduation. Some more than others of course, and none are completely immune to a deep recession. No career offers a guarantee of personal fulfillment either, but being financially independent, able to pay your bills, travel, buy yourself a home, etc., counts for a lot. I think this is an especially important consideration for women.

My DCs are in a system (US) where graduates receive a very broad education even at university level, so a degree in history for instance would mean they would still have done a few years of science or maths or languages at university level en route to a BA, but by the same token a degree in computer science would involve a few years of university level history/psychology/languages/English Lit, etc. But the non arts/humanities BA would lead to more places (and higher paid places) than the Eng Lit degree would. The US also features universities that can cost $40 to $60K per year (160K to 240K for a degree) and while financial aid has covered a lot of the expense for my family so far, parental and student loans can end up being expensive propositions. A pretty much guaranteed paycheque at the end is a highly desirable outcome of a university degree.

So far, the DCs are 'all rounders'. They are in a system that rewards all rounders when it comes to getting into and graduating from universities. I don't have to encourage them to take maths and the hard sciences in school as this is required, just as it is in Ireland where I went to school. However, in the school my DCs are in, maths and science are pegged together, so if you are in an ordinary level maths class you are also in an ordinary level science class. Working as hard at math as every other subject means more doors are open to you down the line, and in fact it is necessary if you want to see those doors open to work hard across the board. You will not get admitted to highly selective universities if you do not excel in all areas and your chances of a career path job upon graduation increase with the selectivity of the university you attend.

The DCs are all rounders because I made them work at art and maths and English Lit and history and biology/physics, etc., even when they didn't want to and even when they laboured under the misapprehension that they had no innate talent in particular areas. What 'suits' a student might not be immediately apparent to anyone until they give it the best try they are capable of.

Thanks to having a maths teacher three years in a row at age 11, 12, and 13 who sucked, DD3 was baffled by maths and very inclined to think she wasn't cut out for the subject. When she got to high school I made her do summer school two years running to get to the point where she could consider applying to the sort of universities that are now on her list, and lo and behold after putting in the sweat and tears it took, she realised that with work and good teachers she could maths to the point where she is considering engineering or computer science or stats and a few other STEM areas. I also have to push her really hard to make an effort in the verbal contribution element of English Lit classes, which she finds very challenging.

My point here is that she didn't understand that she could excel at maths until she tried, and she certainly wouldn't have known how much she likes it without being pushed to engage with it. Same goes for contributing verbally in English. She has always enjoyed art too, and more importantly, is disciplined, organised and a 'finisher' and did very well in her art classes. If she expressed an interest in keeping up art at third level I would certainly urge her to apply to architecture school, but I would have a lot of qualms about giving my blessing to studying costume design.

DD1 started out studying architecture, which she figured was the ideal way to combine her love of maths and physics with her love of art and also end up with a qualification that would lead to a job that would enable her to pay off her education loans and have a lifelong career that would pay as much as she was prepared to make it pay. The real estate crash occurred in her freshman year of university, causing her to (1) get extremely interested in economics and (2) reexamine her career prospects in architecture. She switched to economics with a minor in fine arts. She secured a career-track job offer before graduation.

TalkinPeace · 11/03/2015 08:17

Theatre Costume Design.

mathanxiety · 11/03/2015 15:29

A niece of mine graduated with a BEng in aerospace engineering last year and started a job with an annual $80k salary with benefits, pension and all the other trappings of full time permanent employment six weeks after graduation. Theatre costume designers tend to be freelance, with no benefits or pension plan or health insurance, and if they manage to get work they pay tax on a self-employed basis, which bites. Starting off in the business would mean living in a squat with penniless friends unless you had some sort of a trust fund.

ErrolTheDragon · 11/03/2015 16:09

I don't think that's typical of STEM starting salaries in the UK, unfortunately. I think my DD is expecting that she'll need to get an MEng for a good job and then graft hard to get CEng status.

The start of my STEM career - after gaining PhD - was on a modest salary, no pension provisions or 'benefits' (though that's not a critical issue in the UK, thankfully) and living in a fairly unsalubrious bedsit. Maybe it's better now but I wouldn't count on it. Fortunately my motivation wasn't primarily monetary.

Well done that neice though! Smile

TalkinPeace · 11/03/2015 17:34

math
No, the person in question went onto the payroll of a famous opera company the day they graduated and stayed in full time pensioned employment till family life intervened

$80k starting is pretty impressive, and unusual in STEM jobs, both sides of the pond.

morethanpotatoprints · 11/03/2015 17:37

Why would you want to do this? Confused

I just gave lots of career advice to my dc as it was rubbish or none existant at school.
Aren't we supposed to be getting away from his/her jobs.
By doing this you are emphasising the difference, rather than just educating about all jobs for both sexes.

mathanxiety · 12/03/2015 05:29

It's not unusual for aerospace engineering. Jobs in engineering and computer science generally start about $60k with certain niches more lucrative than others. By contrast, teaching and social science starting salaries average about $25K lower. In a few years the STEM graduate will be considerably better off.

Theatre costume design seems a very precarious thing to aim your hat at all the same. How many graduates can the average opera house absorb every year?

KatieKaye · 12/03/2015 06:11

Hmmm, English Lit graduate here, formerly married to scientist with multiple post grad qualifications - And I earned the higher salary for approx 20 years of our married life and supported him totally for three years.boh, and my pension will be around three time what his will be.

I would encourage any child to get a broad education and then to specialise in the areas they love. Why push someone down a road they have no intrinsic interest in? Let each person be who they are. It's their life after all. Encouraging a certain line to follow can narrow options the child is better suited for and cause lasting resentment and unhappiness.

ErrolTheDragon · 12/03/2015 09:07

Yes. The problem that needs to be solved is that still too many girls perceive some areas as 'male' and 'not for people like us' - and the same for boys. Whether it's the girl who wants to be an engineer or the next PM, or the boy who wants to be a nurse or primary teacher, they need to be encouraged to think 'Is this something I can do?'

Math - starting salaries for engineers are not £40K in the UK($60K at current exchange rates). Mech eng £20-28K. Civ Eng 24K, Electronics £21-29. Aerospace £20-28K.
Architect after first degree £15-20K. True enough a lot of the non-tech jobs won't even be at those levels or well-defined, but there are non-tech professions which compare well - teachers start at ~ £22K, HR assistants £19K for instance.

That website is a mine of information pertinant to the UK, well worth looking at!

mathanxiety · 12/03/2015 15:59

Rewarding HR assistants almost at the same level as teachers starting out is a terrible situation.

If Britain wants to remain an advanced economy then financial incentives for STEM grads need to be much higher. It's all very well to say 'follow your heart' when it comes to a career, but choosing what to do with yourself for your working life isn't necessarily going to be a matter of choosing a vocation with the religious trappings of poverty in a global job market. Many countries fast track immigration applications from STEM grads and as seen, offer (shockingly imo) better prospects than Britain does.

I went to school in a system where a broad range of subjects must be taken all the way through secondary education, and where in recent years the advantage of higher level maths has caused many to find an interest in the subject. So I am baffled by the idea of 'intrinsic interest'. Does the British system where students must narrow their options for A levels contribute to the notion that there is such a thing? To me the concept seems very much a recipe for keeping large sections of the population uninterested in or alienated from maths and science and thus out of STEM degrees. How can anyone separate out cultural pressures from 'intrinsic interest' when it comes to girls or boys and maths/science?

SylvaniansAtEase · 12/03/2015 16:05

First thing to do - send them to a single sex secondary.

Lancelottie · 12/03/2015 17:40

Probably true, Sylvanians, but round here there aren't any.

mathanxiety · 12/03/2015 17:52

First thing to do is make everyone take maths and science subjects all the way through school. You might be surprised at how many people develop an 'interest' or 'talent' in STEM subjects if you couldn't get into Oxbridge even to read Classics without them.

KatieKaye · 12/03/2015 18:05

Math, I am Scottish and studied six subjects at higher level, including maths and economics. So been there, done that and got the t-shirt over 30 years ago. And guess what? I did higher maths solely because I had as a condition of getting into university. And remained uninterested in it. Same for my peers who are arts oriented. Just because some people might become interested does not mean all will be or will develop even the slightest interest in a subject.
I didn't want to do science and have never regretted that fact. I had the benefit of a broad education and knew from a position of experience that I did not want to pursue science. And that was entirely the right decision for me. It also meant I was able to earn a higher wage than my scientist ex and totally fund his post grad studies.

ErrolTheDragon · 12/03/2015 22:37

Depends what you mean, math. I think they are bringing in an extra maths thing for 6th formers who aren't doing maths A levels, which is probably good. But TBH as a scientist I'm not quite sure about people unwillingly doing a bit of half-arsed science. Not sure how it would work - we don't have enough science (or maths) teachers as it is. And we certainly wouldn't want to dilute science and maths A levels so there would have to be different courses.

mathanxiety · 13/03/2015 05:14

At the moment English students can drop maths if they decide it's too much work or if they think it's going to put boys off them. What if girls actually had to take maths to get into an RG university? Many girls might decide they weren't all that arts-oriented or repellent to boys after all if they all had to do maths and science as a prerequisite to university admission, and if they experienced success in them. I know there are probably many who would only do it grudgingly, but by the same token they might appreciate the broadened horizons offered and start to investigate the possibilities STEM subjects in university offered them. Again, there are far more choices of degrees that involve maths or science than your straight BA in mathematics or a BSc in Chemistry.

Sixteen is too young and immature an age to have to make the far reaching decisions that English students must make. It is too culturally acceptable for girls to shy away from STEM subjects, and without anything forcing them to get over their inhibitions, nothing will change about that.

There is no way a situation should have arisen like this one in an Economics course in the University of Sheffield, where students petitioned against what they considered an unfair exam that required more maths than they could handle:
The students who wrote the petition argued that the paper was “highly unfair and in some parts, unreasonable”, as it required maths skills which were not taught on the module.
They went on to claim that the module’s lecturer “made it clear” that the test would only involve “simple maths”.
Students also complained that the paper would have been taken by joint-honours students reading social science subjects such as politics, who likely lacked the mathematical skills of BSc students.

The UK is going to end up down the toilet without more STEM graduates and students capable of handling pretty basic economics-related maths. Producing secondary level maths and science teachers should be a priority.

Providing maths courses at different levels would work as long as there was an incentive to make students take the most challenging level.

KatieKaye · 13/03/2015 05:33

Exactly the same arguments could be used for continuing English and a foreign language throughout school.

RL20 · 13/03/2015 06:09

I haven't really read any of the other comments on here. Just dropping by to say that growing up, I've been around 'pushy parents' (not my own, though) and have witnessed their children grow up to do the complete opposite, or at least definitely differed from the directions they were pushed in.
I understand though that you want your daughters to be different and understand how the world works, and that ultimately that they can do any job they like. But the job they like may very well be a 'female dominated' one.
No harm in dropping the odd line to them, about jobs you have in mind, but ultimately they are going to do what they want to do.
Good luck

TalkinPeace · 13/03/2015 08:00

sylvanian
I have a child of each sex, no way would I have ever sent them to single sex : because its worse for boys and I hated my single sex school

DH and I both did Physics A level. DD would not even set foot inside the physics building in college. But she loves Chemistry and Further Maths.

GentlyBenevolent · 13/03/2015 08:47

Mathanxiety - that is a ridiculous suggestion. We'd be much better off forcing science people to take English or History at A level than forcing arts/humanities kids to take science subjects.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/03/2015 09:42

The solution for that example is that some university subjects really ought to have maths A level as a requirement - I'm pretty stunned that Economics wouldn't. Also, there are some disciplines which should have domain-specific maths classes - for instance lawyers should have a good grasp on probabilities etc, and anyone in medicine needs the sort of maths involved in understanding risk/benefits. (maybe some places already do this, I don't know). Social scientists and anyone interested in politics surely needs a grasp on statistics?

A non-A level maths (which maybe could be done instead of General Studies or 'enrichment' activities if the pupil was doing 4 A2s) would be a good idea - I thought this course was being developed and due to start soon?

DD's school definitely encourages the girls who aren't really sure about what they want to do later to do maths and/or a science A level as part of their mix. Maths and biology are the most popular A2 choices, followed closely by chemistry.

GentlyBenevolent - my DD would vehemently disagree with you! Science A-levels are not devoid of being able to express yourself clearly, its not all numbers and squiggles you know. Extra english for anyone who didn't get gcse pass fine (it's a requirement at her school anyway).

cauchy · 13/03/2015 09:50

Economics does have maths requirements.

The story quoted above is irrelevant to the discussion: university students do have a right to complain if they were misled about the contents of an exam for a module. If they were told the module required only GCSE level maths and then it used a lot of first year university calculus, the module lecturer misbehaved, as the students should have been told what to expect. If the exam used maths which some students taking the module hadn't been taught, the exam was inappropriate.

At the same time the media seems to be picking up on stories of undergrads being unhappy about exams rather often at the moment, perhaps for their own agenda.

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