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How can I encourage my daughters to consider traditionally male dominated careers?

298 replies

meinus · 16/02/2015 12:49

I've been trying to expose my daughters to career areas that are traditionally male dominant. I wanted to share this video because I like how it simply shows a young woman 'as' an engineer and they liked the fun machine setting: www.youtube.com/watch?v=XppH0LJ7c4E
Has anyone seen any other good videos like this that I could show them?

OP posts:
summerends · 14/03/2015 06:31

mathsanxiety Confused you misinterpret my comment.
I was simply pointing out that if parents past and present followed your lead (stated in a previous post) and restricted their DCs' choice to STEM careers the result would be a world without literature, theatre, dance newspapers, music, art, films, design etc etc.

JillyR2015 · 14/03/2015 08:33

As canny says in the UK STEM careers are lower paid and harder to pass the exams for for many so a bit of a lose lose, however much we need those people. We lawyers see brilliant science people moving into law and becoming patent attorneys because of poor science pay. (My daughter did science A levels, a BSc and is a lawyer).

GentlyBenevolent · 14/03/2015 10:56

STEM careers are not harder to pass the exams for. Maths A level in particular is like a rest cure (if you can do maths. Which, despite what Mathanxiety wrongly claims, not everyone can). English and history A level on the other hand are extremely difficult both in terms of workload and in terms of getting a decent grade even if the student is good - flakey marking a real issue.

KatieKaye · 14/03/2015 11:18

Exactly.
Every so often there is a news item about a pre teen who has passed their maths GCSE or A level.
I cannot ever recall reading about a preteen passing similar exams on English, history etc. subjects that require analytical analysis

JillyR2015 · 14/03/2015 12:42

Interesting then that so many good schools say don't do maths A level unless you are likely to get an A*. I suppose you are saying if you can do maths then you can do the A level but if you've only an A - C it may not be the best A level to choose if you need an A for university.

Poisonwoodlife · 14/03/2015 13:09

Katie Exactly the point made by US friends, that we expect pupils to develop skills in historical analysis and literary criticism from GCSE on that are not expected even in undergrad programmes in the US, particularly true of developing the capability to evaluate all arguments and points of view, recognise your own subjectivity and try to achieve an objective viewpoint whilst developing your own arguments and opinions. A US student I knew was complaining about her marks at SOAS because she assumed that presenting a conventional western perspective well argued and evidenced was enough, the main text on her area studies module at an Ivy League had been a crowd pleasing semi academic book written as catharsis and to please western audiences. No doubt very engaging for the class but not getting down to the cultural roots of the issues, it's subjectivity had not been highlighted and it was a shock for US students to see it undermined. Mathsanxiety, I can assure you having sat in on Masters Classes at SOAS that this is an area in which American, and especially Chinese, students have a steep learning curve. Something the US alumnae will willingly concede. Again I think there are cultural roots....but we are not discussing US culture, we are discussing opening the eyes of girls to the possibilities

I am a bit concerned about the focus on high salaries? Why is it assumed this should be the goal. It might be but opening eyes for me also includes highlighting the possibility that they might want to put job satisfaction, fulfilment and happiness first as lavendarsun highlights. In this area where there are a lot of families where parents are highly paid in the financial sector a lot of the DCs have seen the price their parents have paid, in terms of stress, family life, health etc and are rejecting it as a path. My DD knows full well that she will never be taking home £1m a year unless her plan to flog designer babies comes off but she is persuing a career in Science research because of the intellectual challenge and fulfilment it offers.

canny1234 · 14/03/2015 13:54

Stem exams are not harder to pass.I'm not even sure whether entrance requirements are terribly stringent.
Yes,to the high GCSE grade for Maths A level.Dd's school only recommend doing Maths A level if you are forecast an A ( as they want an A/A grade),and are in top set.
Poisonwoodlife good for your dd.Many find several years down the line that they will need more money( for dc's/mortgage and change careers - I did!).Your ideals fly out of the window when real life starts knocking.Not all high- flying careers end up with massive salaries though.Dd1 wants to be a vet.You pretty much need A*'s all the way through,lots of work experience plus a very tough course.However I was shocked to find salaries are pretty low unless you set up your own practice ( which requires a huge amount of investment ).But 75% of newly qualified vets are now female!

Poisonwoodlife · 14/03/2015 14:54

canny I appreciate that but it is her life and her decision. And what do we know? Maybe she will be at the forefront of the next great scientific developments and flog her company selling the next replacement fuel, cells that cure diseases or designer babies whatever for a small fortune. One of DD's friend's fathers who is the most boffin like Science geek, did that but still spends his days in his office working on his next big idea, oblivious to the architectural splendour, swimming pools etc. Wink . She has also attended sessions on entrepreneurial skills because the directions Science is taking offers so many commercial applications. I do know I would be worrying greatly if my DD did want a highly paid job in the city, but my peers have been there, done that, had a party for a while and then high blood pressure, long hours, stress and a nagging feeling of moral turpitude / decadence / being the most hated profession in the country

And I know many happy contented vets, one way to retire to the country and have intellectual challenge and fulfilment. I wish your DD well.

lavendersun · 14/03/2015 15:04

Poison, the joke is that my mother was a music teacher! Dad is a lovely man, he 'wanted the best for us', he means/meant very well.

I gave it up when I became a mother as my job didn't work with our home life at all. Now, if I had studied music and forged an alternate path I am sure I could have done something with music relatively easily alongside living rurally and being a mum.

We will encourage DD to do something she loves whether that be arts, history, music, science, maths - life is too short.

JillyR2015 · 14/03/2015 17:47

And my children's father (music teacher, organist etc) wished his father had not persuaded his children away from the business career he had into in his case music (because music is to low paid). You just have to let them make their own decisions but make sure they are informed decisions. I did 4 grade 8s but more than happy I kept music as a hobby and practise law which seems the best of all worlds to me. I play and sing every day too.

mathanxiety · 14/03/2015 17:52

A good few students from DD2's university have done their undergrad year abroad at SOAS. DD has met and spoken with many of them as she is considering this option. None spoke of being out of their depth or finding the going tough or finding the approach more demanding or demanding in a different way from what they are used to. LSE is another popular option that DD2 is also considering, and her conversations with students who have spent their year abroad there have been on similar lines.

I have always judged my DCs' academic progress according to my own experiences on the other side of the pond and have been pleased to note that while the means of getting there has been different there is a a much more structured approach to teaching essay writing for instance they have all got to the point where they could blend very well with Oxbridge-calibre students on an academic level. Only their accents and peculiar spelling would give them away.

Exactly the point made by US friends, that we expect pupils to develop skills in historical analysis and literary criticism from GCSE on that are not expected even in undergrad programmes in the US, particularly true of developing the capability to evaluate all arguments and points of view, recognise your own subjectivity and try to achieve an objective viewpoint whilst developing your own arguments and opinions.
This is complete baloney.

It is entirely possible that the American postgrad students you have observed in SOAS were there because they couldn't get into any decent American postgrad programmes thanks to their poor analytical skills.

I focus on high salaries (not necessarily £1m a year) because my DCs all have loans to repay and do not want to have to work three jobs to make ends meet after graduation. Also because women have traditionally been conditioned to regard the salary they were capable of earning as less important than their personal satisfaction in their chosen career or the value their chosen career brings to the community. Many have traditionally chosen highly visible careers that are undoubtedly indispensable but do not pay well (and are constantly vulnerable to criticism from members of the public who think they could do a far better job themselves -- nursing and teaching are the prime suspects here.) They have also traditionally chosen careers that offer the possibility of a nice second income for a family, or careers they hope will enable them to maintain a work/family balance, to a far greater extent than boys have.

Meanwhile, boys have been conditioned to set their sights on higher paying careers that can offer personal/professional satisfaction and a contribution to the community that is more oblique (decent roads, safe buildings, representation in court, expertise in investment, etc) but also excellent salaries. The importance of salaries for men arises from the quaint notion that they will be the breadwinners in a nuclear family that will be a unit for five, six, seven decades. Divorce rates and the fact that divorce is the number one reason for women and their children to end up living in poverty thanks to policies on child support that are a joke mean it makes sense for women to be able to earn high salaries.

Indeed, Summerends, and the implication is that this would be a boring world. When we say things like that to girls we are subtly telling them that the contribution of STEM graduates is dull.
I live in a city where there are glorious art museums, orchestras, opera houses, two universities focusing on the arts and associated industries (technical aspects of film and music, etc) -- all founded by and supported by captains of industry who made their money in very mundane fields. The city has also produced several great writers who never darkened the door of a university or if they did, they were required to pass the same maths and science classes as everyone else en route to their degrees in journalism or English lit, etc. In fact, lots of male writers spring to mind, some of whom would make anyone's list of leading 20th century writers. Even when it comes to literary creativeness, it seems men have the edge, and the sort of careers women have traditionally gravitated into involve much that some might see as boring, repetitive or stressful, and where the possibilities of advancement are very limited.

Lavendersmum, you could have combined music with a healthy dollop of STEM courses, maybe even a minor in a STEM subject, in the US.

mathanxiety · 14/03/2015 18:04

STEM careers are not harder to pass the exams for. Maths A level in particular is like a rest cure (if you can do maths. Which, despite what Mathanxiety wrongly claims, not everyone can). English and history A level on the other hand are extremely difficult both in terms of workload and in terms of getting a decent grade even if the student is good

Despite the insertion of your caveat, GentlyBenevolent, you have contradicted yourself here.

Work makes all things possible, both in STEM and non-STEM subjects.

A good student who does not do the work will not get the grades in English or history etc. The same goes for maths. Otoh, a diligent student who works will manage both. American students in their thousands manage this and so do Irish students.

The difference in the perception of maths that people with an English background and an English perspective cling to i.e. that it requires a particular kind of brain really hurts students, especially girls who are curious about the possibilities STEM might hold for them; it does enormous damage to the perception of careers in STEM fields.

Catmint · 14/03/2015 18:09

OP, me and DD (8) are just home from the Big Bang science fair at the NEC which is a huge showcase of STEM. It was really good fun and free! I don't know about encouraging DD into a STEM career but having exposure to the massive range of possibilities is a starting point. Apparently Big Bang do local activities too.

KatieKaye · 14/03/2015 18:31

Gosh Math your anecdotal evidence directly contradicts my own actual experience. Which is that US students doing an exchange programme at my UK university had to take classes a year behind their actual year, so that 3rd year US students studied at 2nd year UK level. This was in the 80s, so things may have changed. Oh, and it was an Ivy League university and a RG university involved.

And have you ever wondered why industrialists chose to fund the Arts? Perhaps it is because they see the value of them.

I'm a child of parents born in the 1920s. They brought me up with the expectation that I could do whatever I wanted. My sex didn't come into it. But then my paternal GM qualified as a doctor in the early years of last century.

Argue your limitations, and sure enough, they are yours. Or you can reach for the sky, much like Douglas Bader who refused to acknowledge that losing his legs would hamper him.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/03/2015 19:42

Work makes all things possible, both in STEM and non-STEM subjects.

So all the students who don't get 4 A* at A level just didn't work hard enough? Hmm Its got absolutely nothing to do with gender, but just about everyone has some limits in some area(s). Of course a lot of people don't achieve their potential, but there are plenty of kids who work diligently but just can't get beyond a certain level.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/03/2015 19:44

Catmint - yes, BB do a lot, my DD has been to two or three of their things already.

mathanxiety · 14/03/2015 20:36

It is very possible that your experience of American students from 30 years ago is not up to date. I am also talking Ivy League fwiw.

Industrialists in the US choose to fund the arts for many reasons:
The US tax code encourages it,
They get their names immortalised,
They get to look like civic-spirited philanthropists -- there is huge snob value to this and it also makes an industry like meat packing look like a means to more of an end than merely minting money.

I think in some respects society has regressed from how things were in previous decades where expectations for women are concerned. My Irish farmer grandfather who left school at 14 to work on the farm put all eight of his children, boys and girls alike, through boarding school and then on to university. All of his grandchildren are university grads, and so far all of his great grandchildren who are old enough to leave secondary school are either university graduates or on their way to graduation. My grandfather had no time for limitations.

KatieKaye · 14/03/2015 21:11

And you are talking about anecdotal evidence.
Anecdotal.
Which I take with a huge pinch of salt.

Andrew Carnegie was not bothered about his tax code!

Your grandfather was broad minded - why not try to emulate him?

Poisonwoodlife · 14/03/2015 21:40

Mathsanxiety without outing myself my experience is completely current, give or take a year or so, and of Ivy league / top liberal arts / the likes of Georgetown's international relations programme. And some of the US students I am still in contact with and thoroughly admire as open minded and intellectually curious, joined me on a road to Damascus in terms of understanding what we had already observed overseas, but failed to properly interpret in the cultural context. They are now making a huge difference to changing US attitudes, though perhaps in GOs and NGOs and not earning £1m. I am sure that not a few never get there, or US and UK foreign policy would be more informed and effective. I do hope your DD comes to SOAS, it is an amazing institution, with an open mind and listens to what the academics have to offer not just in terms of skills and knowledge but perspective too.

I think you also underestimate the deeply ingrained sense of being part of the civil society in the US, people are actually far more aware of their duty and responsibility towards society. True it tends to manifest itself in responsibility towards the familiar, the alma mater, the arts (and networking opportunities) but it isn't just about tax benefits and status. I know people who are seriously old money for whom sharing their privilege is in no way calculated. And they certainly appreciate the value of art, music and history. They are already part of the Big Society picking up some of the pieces that the Conservatives hoped they could drop here for the rest of us to pick up, an enterprise that failed because the cultural context is so different.

Poisonwoodlife · 14/03/2015 21:44

Catmint Hope you and DD saw my DD there on one of the stands communicating her enthusiasm can't out her by saying which or she will never talk to me again

summerends · 14/03/2015 23:31

mathsanxiety most of us have a rather more balanced view of the importance of a variety of careers than you are portraying.
An appreciation that we are fortunate that some DCs follow their inclinations and talents in the arts and humanities does not negate the interest and importance of STEM subjects or any of the more pragmatic jobs.
However a perspective that restricts careers by the size of their salaries and security actually does a disservice to the appeal of STEM subjects to DCs as exciting areas to pursue.

mathanxiety · 15/03/2015 02:09

As are you Katie, but my personal observation is a bit more up to date than yours all the same.

My grandfather was not so much open minded as stubbornly determined that none of this children would be forced to leave Ireland in order to live, which was the fate of all of his brothers and sisters except for one. The fact that he himself did not leave was entirely a matter of luck -- he got the chance to start working on an uncle's farm at the time he had to make up his mind about leaving or staying. Those siblings of his who went to Australia he never saw again. He also hoped, if his children chose to leave, that they would not end up digging canals or tunnels or bricklaying to eke out a living. His hopes were realised. For him, education was all about making a better life, a life that included choices where work was concerned, and not being at the mercy of circumstances as he had been.

The idea that my small farmer grandad was 'open-minded' perhaps comes from someone used to looking at things through the prism of the British class system where people tend to shun what they feel is above their station or not suitable for the likes of them in some way? The world was my cricket-playing, old-IRA member grandad's oyster. He had no time for artificial distinctions between people, and welcomed spouses of his children from all sorts of ethnic and socio-economic backgrounds. He was enthralled by the Republican idea of Irish independence and the opportunities native government offered Irish children via the education system. He hoped EEC membership would be accompanied by vastly improved European language offerings in the local technical secondary school so that the children of the small rural town and those of his small farmer neighbours could avail of the opportunities the EEC and later the EU labour market offered. He rejoiced that whereas he had to send his children off to boarding school to have a shot at getting to university, his grandchildren could stay home, go to the local tech and on to university from there. His was far from an unusual Irish attitude to education.

There most definitely is a cultural chasm (that Cameron chose to ignore) separating the US and UK. Philanthropy is just one aspect of it. The facilitation of philanthropy by means of the tax system well expresses what might be called the practical American mind that understands the role of incentives when it comes to parting people from their money. What came first, the philanthropic urge or the tax system that encourages it is perhaps a chicken and egg question. How Britain became a welfare state is another. The Walsh School of Foreign Service in Georgetown University (with which I am familiar), founded by the very influential Georgetown Jesuit Fr Edmund Walsh, is unusual among American universities in that its name does not immortalise a millionaire.

There is no way to ever know except perhaps in hindsight whether you have 'properly' interpreted geopolitical trends as events keep on moving forward and throwing new light on the past, even the recent past. In the context of US foreign policy, 'proper' interpretation always assumes even subconsciously the fact that America has the capacity to actually drive events and create its own reality. That is not to say that thorough, well-researched and well-thought out interpretation does not take place, but it does so in the US in the context of a global superpower that can directly influence events. The British FP approach no longer operates within that mental framework.

(I do not know where the £1m income idea is coming from. You could possibly earn that over the course of a professional career, but probably not per year.)

Summerends -- 'However a perspective that restricts careers by the size of their salaries and security actually does a disservice to the appeal of STEM subjects to DCs as exciting areas to pursue.'
That is not the perspective I have sought to present to my DCs. I have emphasised the many choices available to them and the versatility and career options they will have if they are prepared to put in the work necessary to succeed in maths and science.

They have all worked since they were 12 or 13, at babysitting and then summer office jobs, etc., and they know that earning money means you have money to spend. I never gave them an allowance so this was something they were keen to do. Money and the fact that they would one day be making their own has simply not come up except when I discussed with them the financial implications of going to university -- costs, what they needed to do wrt loans, how they needed to plan for repayment of loans upon graduation. They have always known that they are heading gradually towards being completely responsible for themselves financially. So far I have not had to send a single penny to any of them while they were students.

Making money and supporting themselves and aspiring to make even more is a point of pride for them, as it is for many American students (most of whom support themselves at least in part while studying) a point that some British posters here seem not to really understand, judging from the questioning of money as a motivational factor. Part time jobs are a feature of the American teen landscape and also the experience of the average American university student.

Perhaps another cultural chasm is revealing itself here. Salaries and financial security are really important in a society that is not a welfare state. The British idea as expressed on this thread that personal fulfillment or finding your destiny (or 'interest' or 'ability') is one of the most important factors in choosing a career is one that could only fly in a society with a strong safety net. Neither Ireland nor the US have that. Perhaps the dead hand of the British caste system serves to make money something of an irrelevance too. No matter how many millions you make in Britain, you are probably not going to break into high society without the 'right' background. By contrast America tends to welcome the self made man. I have two examples within exH's family as cases in point.

KatieKaye · 15/03/2015 07:23

Math, I agree that your posts do show you have a cultural chasm and that you have a very one sided view with a rather irrational prejudice against those who do not pursue science subjects and find fulfilment and even financial well being in other ways.

Never mind.

summerends · 15/03/2015 07:45

mathanciety from your previous posts including this
I told my DCs (all of them) that I would not pay for a degree in English Lit, MFL, History, or any other subject that did not involve a large dollop of maths or science. This focused their minds very effectively. My motivation is purely practical. They all have or will have loans to repay upon graduation, and degrees with a maths component tend to pay better

money earning potential appears to be very much the way you perceive the merits of STEM careers and dictating your DD's choices rather than the intrinsic interest of the subjects

Again I prefer a more balanced perspective which entails discussing with my DCs the pragmatic advantages of the earning potential of certain STEM careers versus riskier careers (including some careers in STEM subjects such as research scientist).
It is also worth pointing out that in the UK humanities degrees do not stop graduates entering into lucrative commercial / financial sector career paths if like for any career path they have the necessary qualities required. A STEM degree without certain qualities is not a guarantee of good job. Certainly a lack of enthusiasm because they have been pushed into the wrong career path for them would not be one of those qualities required.

I am also not sure why with your DD's upbringing including the need to earn money you do not trust them to have developed the maturity to make their own choices in adult life and respect that their motivations may be different to yours.

KatieKaye · 15/03/2015 07:57

Btw Math, your fondness for science should have taught you not to make unproven assumptions about posters' nationalities. Just because someone talks about the UK education system does not logically infer they are British!