Alan Bennett on private education

[UrbanDad]

A great quote from AlanBennett, in the Guardian today taken from his talk last summer at King’s College Chapel, Cambridge: “We all know that to educate not according to ability butaccording to the social situation of theparents is both wrong and a waste. Private education is not fair. Those who provide it know it. Those who payfor it know it. Those who have to sacrifice in order to purchase it know it. And those who receive it know it, orshould. And if their education ends without it dawning on them, then that education has been wasted.”

I cannot disagree with any of that.

the discussion has moved on ...

Will say though that it is not so much about the wealth of a nation but rather its policies and approach to education (and generally the culture).

In some cultures, taking personal responsibility for outcomes, including education outcomes is encouraged whereas in the UK one may say that this is undermined. In some cultures parents are big on discipline and education is everything. Wealth does not necessarily buy you the right attitude.

One of the best health system in the world is in Cuba and they are far from wealthy. China is growing in wealth but has for many years achieved a better basic standard of education.

English is sometimes spoken better by foreigners than by native Brits.

China is growing in wealth but has for many years achieved a better basic standard of education.
Hmmm.

Have you read some of the articles about the PISA test methodology where the results that everybody crows about in fact only cover Shanghai and Beijing and that the government flatly refused permission to sample a representative set of rural schools
as is the case in the UK for example
as they knew the results would be dire.

Chinese education outside the Enterprise zones and the mega cities is nearer to the Marsh Academy than it is to Winchester College.

I'm lost now, too intelligent for me, but still lurking.

I do get one bit though. It doesn't matter how wealthy a nation is if they aren't investing enough in education.

Happy

I highlight the address bar, copy and then paste into this bit.

It tells you what to do with these down there somewhere.

Hakluyt and TalkinPeace

I mention developing countries because I spent time in one. And I also pay for kids in other developing countries to be educated, and have a chance in life that MANY kids in this country take for granted.

Just because they were unlucky enough to be born in a poor country, does not mean they do not deserve an education any less. I accept they will never have it as good as the average British kid, because... hey.... the world isn't fair. but if I could choose, I'd rather have my taxes go towards knowledge-hungry kids of subsistence farmers than kids who by sheer luck were born in the UK, where education is free, and then throw it away by not taking learning seriously (and there are many of those). You could say you'd get a much better return on your investment that way.

From the responses, it really does seem as though - eventually - everyone draws a line. And as said, many just don't want to do so in their own backyard. It's easy to ignore the other kids that have it much worse, but are far away, isn't it... Just like we ignore all the horrible events in faraway countries that cost the lives of thousands, but unite as soon as "our kind of people" are affected.

It's easy to ignore the other kids that have it much worse, but are far away, isn't it... Just like we ignore all the horrible events in faraway countries that cost the lives of thousands, but unite as soon as "our kind of people" are affected.

I totally agree with this and if I had money after my dcs education was provided for I would be doing the same.

A nations wealth is not necessarily an indication of the quality of it's education. We used to have au pairs from Poland pre joining the EU and before it's economic boom, I was always amazed that 1. many spoke reasonable good English, certainly better than your average UK students French would be and 2. how broad their education had been, most could discuss literature classical music etc in some depth. None came from Warsaw or Krakow as we were very rural at the time so avoided those who lived in big cities. Interesting three couldn't swim at all. All were also very hard working and showed lots if initiative.
In contrast I know some who've been educated in Singapore often held up as a country with a wonderful education, they frequently criticise the quality of teaching in comparison with that which they receive in UK independent schools.
Singapore's GDP per capita rank is it 7th in the world link whereas Poland's is 69th.
Oooh it's really exciting I can now link websites in! Thank you.

Oh not a successful as I thought the link to Poland's GDP per capita failed. [[https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pl.html link[[ hopefully I've got it right this time.

Failed again used wrong thingys, never mind.

" I'd rather have my taxes go towards knowledge-hungry kids of subsistence farmers than kids who by sheer luck were born in the UK, where education is free, and then throw it away by not taking learning seriously (and there are many of those)."
I will always jump to the defence of British children especially those from very low income backgrounds when they are accused of doing things like throwing away education by not taking it "seriously". It's so easy to make sweeping judgemental statement like this and on the surface that appears to be what they are doing but generally many other factors outside of their control have contributed to this lack of interest in education.
I'm not against money being given to help those from developing countries receive a good education as well by the way.

I agree with that to an extent happy.

Growing up, many of my peers had such huge difficulties to face, that education came very low on the list of Stuff That Matters.

I see it too in the school where I am a governor. Poor families embroiled in enormous social and racial tensions; it's very difficult to get the kids to focus on maths!

There are also sadly, too many perfectly focused kids being disadvantaged by crap educational policies and poor structures and advice within schools ; they can hardly be blamed.

That said, I do think there is a substantial proportion of families where they are not disadvantaged in any serious way ( in fact on global standard are advantaged) but education (be that narrow or broad) is simply not a priority.

Perfectly nice, decent, hardworking families. But no real interest in education other than sending their DC to school.

I disagree with the sentiment that any child in the UK can learn if they want to.

We have children who are lucky to be in a family of people who are very interested in education, and as a result our children are focused, ready to learn and eager. However, we've had to remove them in the end from the free education they were receiving as the environment was not conducive to learning.

Whether you blame the other children, the lack of discipline, the sky high absenteeism among teachers, the lack of funding, the result is that the highly disrupted education they were subjected to is not fit for 21st century England. And whilst I appreciate that some schools in the state sector do an amazing job, ours didn't and even just one failing school surely is too many if you calculate just how many children every year are being deprived of a decent education and what effect it has further down the line.

PS I also totally agree with happygardening - I come from a poor country and the education I receive was first class - we did have to wear coats in the class as all the windows were broken and part of the roof used to collapse on our desk on a regular basis - but the teaching and general education I received was amazing and set me up for life.

Happygardening and Soveryupset

One of the reasons even poor countries can provide good education at times (I spent my early years in one, and was miles ahead of my Western contemporaries) is that education is seen as the only way out of poverty. Well... that and becoming a movie or recording star. And if you're not poor, you see all around you what can happen, if you don't study. You are therefore under significant pressure to perform.

There is no safety net.

No 'benefits' that provide shelter and income. Nothing.

I wouldn't really count Poland as a true 'developing country'. Poland is part of Europe, and shares an educational system not too different from its neighbour.

I was talking more about countries in Africa, etc.

There is also the little matter of the very many children who don't go to school at all. The ones who are actually at school at all in many counties are the same children who would be coached to within an inch of their lives for a supr selective in this country-the children of committed, ambitious parents.

Glad I came back to this thread to have a quick look - interesting discussion.

I can see how always equating fairness with morality and justice, in a very black and white way, which is what I was doing earlier (sorry, was in a bit of a negative mood!) can make it difficult to talk about priorities, weigh up competing interests, deal with circumstances that are not fully in your control, make pragmatic decisions, and get a bit of fun out of life. None of us are perfect moral beings.

I think most of us are willing to have less than we would like if we do not feel we have lost too much as a result and the benefit to others of doing that would be sufficiently great to make the "sacrifice" worthwhile. I can see that your view on private education therefore depends on your perception of what you would be giving up not to have it and what others would gain from you not getting it. I can also see that, therefore, your views could change if circumstances change and that different people will weigh up the pros and cons in different ways. I think the problems come where others feel your personal weighing scales are faulty and are giving too much weight to your own self-interest and too little weight to the needs of others, whether as a result of pure selfishness, or lack of understanding.

I absolutely agree snowbells that the reason we had an excellent education was that it was the only way out of poverty. It is very true.
I suppose you could argue that the system as a whole catered for that need, so it was a virtuous circle in that respect.

What I can't understand is why poor people in the UK - and there are many - do not feel that desire to study hard to get out of their often diabolical situations. I can't put my finger on it.

Presumably because they don't believe it will make a difference to their situation, Soveryupset.

There are even more poor people in Poland and their apparently excellent education system, according to this thread (I reserve judgement) doesn't seem to have made a difference for them.

Economic growth is dependent on a lot more factors than a good classically educated population!

Well, exactly.

snow I didn't say Poland was a developing country but I did say my au pairs were educated in the late 90's early 2000's before it became a member of the EU and experienced an economic boom, certainly those living in rural Poland were pretty poor, many travelling around by horse and cart and families with 2-3 children living in tiny 1 bedroomed flats, there was also a very high level of unemployment.
rabbit contrary to what someone said the other day, no one on here has ever convinced me that other children would gain if I sent my DS to our local state school.
I may be giving "too much weight" to my "own self interest" and you or anyone else can label it as "pure selfishness", I doubt few would say it's lack of understanding, but when the push comes to the shove frankly I don't actually care.

I agree bonsoir there is Im sure little correlation between a classical education and a countries economic success. There may be a better correlation between a science/math focused education and economic success or an even greater correlation when education provides proper training in manufacturing trades thus strengthening the manufacturing industries and economic success.

Well, happy, I don't think you don't care and I don't think you are exhibiting pure selfishness, either. You have, however, thought about the benefits to your family and specifically your ds of having the education he is receiving, and have considered the impact your choices may have on others. You have come to a conclusion with which you are content. I think, therefore, that you do care, or you wouldn't have thought it through and you wouldn't still come onto these threads to argue about it!

Yes in my country of origin you have people with PhDs, degrees etc not being able to secure any jobs and working in any - often manual and badly paid job - they can find.

But that's not the point. The point is that the education on offer is excellent - very many emigrate, creating a "brain drain" - after all, that's what I did too.

A good education is just one useful component to help someone lead a fulfilling, successful life. Physical and mental health and resilience are probably even more important. And then there is recognising opportunities when they arise and a bit of luck thrown in.