Alan Bennett on private education

[UrbanDad]

A great quote from AlanBennett, in the Guardian today taken from his talk last summer at King’s College Chapel, Cambridge: “We all know that to educate not according to ability butaccording to the social situation of theparents is both wrong and a waste. Private education is not fair. Those who provide it know it. Those who payfor it know it. Those who have to sacrifice in order to purchase it know it. And those who receive it know it, orshould. And if their education ends without it dawning on them, then that education has been wasted.”

I cannot disagree with any of that.

Minifingers - there are quite a lot of musically gifted DC in my DD's generation on my father's side of the family and those DC are not learning their instruments/singing in their choirs within normal private schools. They all started off at conservatoires (paid for by their parents), some of them have worked very hard at being Cathedral choristers (and got scholarships for this) and some of them have then gone on to get music scholarships to well-known boarding schools. TBH both the DC and their parents have worked extremely hard at their music and paid for that, sometimes, but largely outside mainstream school until 13+.

Mimifingers

Its unfair, but what should people do then, not attend private school.
We have exactly the same situation, we are low income family and can't afford private school fees, our 2 oldest children went to crap schools and didn't reach their potential at all. I didn't have to tell them why they couldn't go to a school that excelled in their sport, they knew we couldn't afford it and they made do with what they had, they had to. They turned up to matches at county level to see every other player come from a private school of posh grammar. Some even looked down on them and were horrible kids tbh, but the majority were lovely and had gone to play hockey.

My dd is G&T music and has been an outsider in our area for quite some time now, there are opportunities for dc to attend private specialist schools irrespective of income and they openly advertise this.
It may not be one in every town but there are several in London. Then there is Birmingham, Manchester, scotland, wales, There are about 9 in all.
Most only operate on saturdays, but they offer awards and bursaries to those on low income if their dc are at the right level, usually grade 5 distinction would get an audition and offer.

I'm sorry Mini but if the opportunities are there and you don't take them, how can you complain?

yeah, Mini, if you can sort yourself out (assuming you equate a child who's good at music with one who necessarily wants to specialise to that extent at that age) why on earth would you give a flying fuck about any wider issues or anyone else at all? Sheesh. We only complain about things which directly affect us at the time, do you not see?

TOSN

ODFOD

Mini, fwiw, I don't think it is fair and you have the added problem of your dc knowing others who attend private schools, this must be hard for them.
We don't have too many good schools here either.

I have done my share of complaining and didn't mean to sound like I was saying you have no right to complain, just that for me it was so futile so I stopped.

Do your LA offer anything in terms of music centre with ensembles.
We don't have choirs or orchestras in schools as parents aren't bothered here neither. But for the ones that do have lessons as soon as they can play they are encouraged into an ensemble.

I'm sure you have tried this, but thought it was worth a suggestion.

Why should music be freely available at school?

Many nice things that cost a lot of money cannot be made freely available to DC: horse riding, ballet, sculpture are all educational.

Morethan.
FOY!

I don't think you get the difference between objecting to a situation that's unfair to a lot of children, because you think it's a bad situation, and just looking out for your own kid. Hence statements like 'surely you do what's best for your own child' and so on.

Bonsoir

Because it is part of the nc, well was anyway.
Because it is part of a broad education and imo a language.

I don't think anybody has said freely available.
Most LAs who provide lessons and run ensembles do this at a cost.
There are schemes in some areas to cover these costs for children receiving fsm, I know because a family I know receive the whole lot free.

I don't know about specialist sports schools but I know that music, dance, drama awards allow thousands of children the opportunity to gain a specialist education if their parents are poor.

Once again, good state provision seems to depend on your area, just the same as it does for academic subjects.

A full musical education is not part of the NC.

TOSN

Maybe, I wasn't clear in which case I apologise.

My point was that you may think its unfair as I do, especially in music. Its a soap box of mine
You can be passionate about how unfair it is, but then be faced with a child who really wants to do the subject, as in our case.
We were faced with the choice of sticking to principle or allowing dd to go for it.
In the end we had to let her do it, irrespective of how wrong you think it is.
They have even thrown most of the fees in, the amount we will have to pay will be less than we do now.
Hence my comment surely you do whats best for your child, even though it may go against your former belief.
I challenged my opinion long before dd and music it was during my much older ds x2 hockey matches.

I would explain it by saying that the state provides an education for every child and if you want more than is provided you pay for it. Most parents ( and I know not all) pay by giving up other things like outings, meals out, large houses and new cars etc. I'd say we are fortunate to live in a free society where people have choices and can decide how they spend their own money. Different families make different choices.
I would also say that we do no wish to live in a society where our freedom to choose is restricted by others who do not agree with our choices.

my children were/are very musical mainly because DH was a professional musician. They played in regional youth orchestras and sang in church choirs. There was no music to speak of at their first primary school.
Most children and parents were not interested enough in music so that made sense. I did not expect the school to make special provision for my dcs. That would have been unfair on all the other dcs who were not interested. I think, mini, you are arguing against yourself.
Everything has to be fair unless it affects your dcs then everyone else has to pay for special provision for them.

Why shouldn't music be part of the basic curriculum? How many more children would enjoy it if they had the exposure to good music? Or are we to go back to the three Rs only for the plebs?

basic music is very different to a whole bl**dy orchestra!

LaVolcan

There are 3 dc in our local county children's choir who are fully supported financially. They have singing lessons, free membership of fees and they live for choir every week.
They have always been a poor family but last year Dad left and mum struggled initially to put food on the table.
Should these children be turned away from their one positive thing in life?

We aren't rich but if they proposed putting up fees by £10 a term to cater for families like this I wouldn't object.

Today, my dh has accompanied another of his students to an audition at specialist music school, he has several this year. They are all working class on benefit of some kind and attending poor schools. They all have a natural ability and are extremely talented musicians.
This is the way it should be, not just for the preserve of the rich.

"Mini, fwiw, I don't think it is fair and you have the added problem of your dc knowing others who attend private schools, this must be hard for them.
We don't have too many good schools here either."

We have some very good schools here.

Not offering music provision doesn't = crap school.

Schools are communities - I've said this over and over again and everyone ignores it. They want to believe that what shapes the character of a school and the experiences of the children who attend is the way it's run and nothing more. I don't agree. Schools are made up of children. There is something wrong with a country where there is such a huge amount of social selection going on in education. It shapes the character of schools more than anything else.

"I think, mini, you are arguing against yourself.
Everything has to be fair unless it affects your dcs then everyone else has to pay for special provision for them."

I'm not arguing for specialist one to one instrument teaching free of charge in state schools.

If certain learning activities are not part of the national curriculum, then this is a problem of government policy. Where does the question of fair or unfair come in? Private schools recognise that there is a desire and a consequent demand by some parents for their children to engage in these activities. Some of these parents are able to finance this demand and some are unable to. Why is this unfair? Some people are able to afford home ownership and others can't. Some can afford private health care and others can't, etc, etc.

If parents want more than what is offered freely by the state, then either pay for it or put pressure on the state to provide it. BUT that's where fairness comes in. The state must try to satisfy the needs of a very heterogeneous group. Where the service is being provide free and everyone is entitled, should music or sport take priority over art? Why? Just because some parents want it? What about others who want something else. The government does not have a bottomless kitty. It has to juggle and prioritise. Therefore, if you want more, pay. If you can't afford, c'est la vie.

When it is said that a child did not reach his/her full potential because of the schooling, what does that mean and how is that determined? Subjective or objective. My child did not reach where I think he should have reached in life, therefore he did not reach his full potential and it's the school's fault?

Newrule

In both of our older 2 dc education, it was mostly the part of the system amd the schools tbh.
They really did receive a poor education, its the case for many as I'm sure you know.
They are doing ok in life, but they certainly didn't reach their full academic potential, I'm not sure how else I can say this.

Mini

I know that no music provision doesn't = crap schools, but my ds did attend crap schools and they are usually not very good in this area.

The state provision for dd at secondary is just as dire tbh.

A significant number of kids from crap schools achieve very good results. So arguably some do reach their potential and some very near it. Some may not reach their potential but once at university, their ability pushes them above others.

Some kids go to private schools and meet their potential though that potential does not result in brilliant academic results. Some kids may exceed their potential but the underlying ability is not there to sustain them.

By the way, this is not direct at your dcs situation. Just at the general level.

NewRule

I appreciate I was speaking in very general terms, and I'm not convinced that with a better education they would have made different choices to those they have, although they might have done.

I know a girl who is reaching her full potential from a really crumby school, different area to us, further up north still She is motivated and determined beyond belief.

I know you are right, there are so many factors to consider, for us though it is dds wishes we are following, she just wants a chance.
At first I wasn't at all convinced, but now I realise it would be my own stubbornness and selfishness if I denied her chance.

I was once told by someone on here that my desire that my DS receive a truly broad education that would help make him into a renaissance man, knowledgable about art, classics, opera, architecture, foreign languages, literature etc, was not something that your average man walking down the street aspires to for his child therefore if this is what a I personally want I can't expect the state to pay so it is right that I pay to get it.
Perhaps this also applies to those who want an specialised music education or classical ballet or a niche sport? It's simply not possible especially in this day and age of limited resources for state education to provide this.

Well to be fair, I think most parents probably need to think in more practical (not to mention contemporary!) terms about educational outcomes for their children, so the specific aim of making someone into a 'Renaissance Man' is perhaps a tad more niche than the state can reasonably aim for!

Obviously I don't think you should pay to get it, seeing as I think public schools are a moral and social evil and all that, but given the status quo, yes, I think the aim to create a man from the sixteenth century is probably one that should be attended to outwith the state system.

I don't think that wanting to educate your DC to be a Renaissance person is "16th century". On the contrary.

But that sort of education is a luxury - an indulgence, even - which is clearly not the role of the state to provide.

Happy
Out of idle interest, if you had had girls , where would you have sent them for their renaissance education?