State primary and grammar without tuition

[jollybloodyhockeysticks]

Just wondering if anyone can share their experiences. Do you have a child who went to a state primary and passed the 11+ without tutoring? Is it imperative to get tutoring for the 11+ if your child is naturally academically bright and excelling in a state primary? Tia x

Thank you Olgius - well said.

But you are probably whistling into the wind on mumsnet with this view.

There are many people here who REALLY believe that the 11+ is a good test of potential and ability.

One wonders why you entered your child then and if you would have felt differently if he/she had passed.

Also you can say the same re music exams.There are plenty of kids out there who are musical and not deemed to be because they haven't passed music exams.

I absolutely agree with Olgius too.

I'm another parent who agrees that the state curriculum for primary maths doesn't have enough consolidation.

Glad to see the people agree. I was quite ostracized by other parents for these views.

LePetitMarseillais My son is just turning 10, he hasn't yet sat any exams. I just think that tests reflect teaching and learning done, and that's why many kids from the private schools pass. Not because they were "tutored to the test" but because they were (I suspect, I don't have any experience) attentively taught and they practised anough.

No one would expect a person who hasn't been exposed to human language to just write a brilliant novel (and display their linguistic /literary potential). Any achievement reflects knowledge, work as well as talent. I guess, a child writing a more interesting essay would have more linguistic talents, but it doesn't mean in any way that she will become a brilliant writer. That is why I say this is not about potential.

In maths, you cannot assess potential by giving rather standard mathematical problems. And as I said, no one would expect a child to discover 2000 years worth of mathematics by himself or herself, they need to be taught, and they need to practise. And this is what tests show.

So what is the point of any exam.

Alevels are to gauge uni potential,GCSEs Alevels.

Yes, exactly olguis!

Before tutoring my DD seemed to approach the most rote problems from first principles. It is impossible to do well in a timed test when you have to "reinvent the wheel" with every question.

Our school use a Cognitive Ability test annually from Y4: VR, NVR, spatial ability etc. Teachers can access results to show learning preferences, strengths and weaknesses etc and any anomalies given class performance etc can by examined. Children are not told it is a formal test or given prior warning. It is supposedly gives a generally accurate guide to largely unalterable academic potential especially where a pattern emerges over several years. Parents get the results along with the national average (100) and year average. It can then be used as a tool as to whether a selective secondary education may suit a child by parents.

Wouldn't this be a fairer system for 11 plus type exams? Prospective schools receiving Y4-6 CAT results along with school reports?

Yes, currently trying to drill into DS1 (8) that if he just knuckled down and learnt his bloody times tables his maths homework would be done in half the time as he wouldn't have to work out 8x6 every single time

When I took my 11+ 30 years ago it was more like this.

We were all automatically entered for 11+, no one was told when it was, it was just a test in school. No one was tutored and there were 4 children who'd gone to private primary in my year.

The same was true 15 years ago when my nephews took it. DN1 came 11th in the town despite doing no preparation whatsoever.

I have no idea what happened since but it's certainly not like that now.

There are a number of possible different purposes to an exam:

1. To give an incentive for people to master material (skills or information) that you want them to learn. (Important in A-levels etc.)

1. To provide a check that essential knowledge has been acquired before you let someone lose to practice (medical, legal...)

1. To assess somebody's underlying abilities and strengths in order to determine what kind of education, career would suit them best (11+, psychometric tests)

1. To evaluate someone's understanding of a subject in order to identify gaps, determine best next steps (important in internal progress tests, mocks)

Different exams have different roles. Important not to confuse them.

"So what is the point of any exam.

Alevels are to gauge uni potential,GCSEs Alevels."

Looking at people qualifications gives you insight into prior learning. Someone with 10 A*s at GCSE will be both bright and hard working. However, plenty of very bright people under achieve hugely at both GCSE and A level because of inadequate schooling, social problems or a difficult adolescence (just for starters).

Then they are pointless if not fair.

Surely if some kids get crap GCSEs because they have have crap teaching or missed out areas the whole lot are null and void-going by your logic.