State primary and grammar without tuition

[jollybloodyhockeysticks]

Just wondering if anyone can share their experiences. Do you have a child who went to a state primary and passed the 11+ without tutoring? Is it imperative to get tutoring for the 11+ if your child is naturally academically bright and excelling in a state primary? Tia x

The thing is I think there are very few parents that would let their kid walk into any exam with absolutely zero prep.Some prep is necessary,which is why all 3 in our area list what needs to be done,has info days where they show the kids how to do it and materials to take away if you want them.

Some parents will go further the same as they will with GCSEs and A levels. Many don't have the money for private so do the best with what they have,that is life.

If some choose to do years they're wasting their time imvho. Kids with a good vocab who read a lot can pick up essay skills quickly,ditto the maths.They don't need to be doing it for years.Many kids with parents who day that may well have got in anyway without the extra years of prep.

My child could probably have got into grammar without doing lots of work on VR and NVR at home, but she only had the one chance and I wasn't prepared to take the risk. It really baffles me that anyone thinks not preparing their child for an exam would be the best thing to do. They will be competing with plenty of others who have.

Root - its a shame your DS didn't pass. At our primary school, in DD2's year, none of the kids who passed for the superselective had tutoring (although one of them does additional languages outside school, he comes from a multi language household). All the top table maths kids had been working at L6 since Y5. The one child who had tutoring (not top table) didn't get in. It's ckear that in some parts of the country tutoring is rife, and that in some primary schools able kids aren't suitably extended - but I don't think it's helpful to generalise. The 11+ itself varies from area to area (and sometimes from school to school). The best advice for parents is to find out how things work where they live, not how things work in different areas.

My child wouldn't have got in had the 11+ she took included NVR (dyspraxic). If I'd felt she needed extra tuition to get in, she wouldn't have sat the test - I have an older child at the school (we were clueless about everything when she did the test and then very concerned afterwards in case she hadn't passed because - too late - we heard rumours about extensive tuition (nobody from her school had gone to the superselective for years, there was no playground chat about it). Those rumours proved to be unfounded. What did become clear after Dd1 started at the school was that if she had had to make strenuous efforts to get in, to reach the starting standard - she'd have floundered once there. This informed our approach with DD2. I know that after Dd2 got in there were playground rumours that she had had 'after school tuition'. She did - for music theory. Music theory is not part of the 11+ (but sadly if you have passed grade 5 and are ready for grade 6 and taking ABRSM exams you have no choice but to do music theory and not surprisingly it's not taught in primary schools). I can see that some kids might need to bone up on VR if it's a component of the 11+ and they come from a family that doesn't do puzzles etc as a 'thing' - but we've always done puzzles (I would die without my daily fix and the kids have all picked up the bug) so it wasn't necessary for us. I would always suggest to people whose kids aren't familiar with VR type puzzles (word and number play) that it's worth taking a look. I would never suggest that kids should have tuition in Maths and English that they should be doing at school. If they aren't at the right level then they aren't at the right level.

Disagree re the Eng and maths- things like idioms,similes,metaphors,abbreviations etc are dead easy to pick up,ditto doing an essay in 45 mins none of which my dc had done at school and some of the maths.None were hard concepts and are being taught now in year 6 which would have been too late.The private schools had covered a lot of it yonks ago(friend in private the same age).

All the above are outlined in How to books and really not hard to pick up very quickly if they are of the right ability.Get essay titles off the 11+ forum and just time them.

Lepetit - when and how do children pick these things up if they're not doing it in school?

Are you seriously arguing that learning to write a good essay in 45 minutes can be picked up quickly (you have two or three goes at it) and once picked up, can't be improved on by regular practice?

I've always seen writing as a craft which improves by increments in response to regular practice.

Rabbit - 'not being at the right level' is utter bollocks. Plenty of adults fail the 11+ then go on to do spectacularly well at GCSE and A-level, get first class degrees and PHDs.

The 11+ is not a reliable test of potential.

To be academically successful a child needs to have a good memory, fast processing speeds, intellectual curiosity, creativity, and a wide frame of reference. A child can have all of these things and masses of potential. Yet they may not be able to write a decent essay in 45 minutes, or work their way quickly through a large number of maths questions, if they haven't learned these particular academic skills nor had enough practice at extended writing, or even covered the curriculum in the first place.

It's not hard to practice.There is a masseeeeeve list of titles on the forum.You only need a How to book so you know to keep an eye on paragraphs and imagery and a stop watch. Really isn't hard to pick up if they have good vocab, spelling and lots to say. Tutoring isn't going to give you fab spelling,a fab vocab and lots to say but a few goes at essay writing will pull those skills together.That said my dc are good at Eng anyway- levels 5/6.

Re maths if they are already good at it they will whizz through one of the 11+ maths books easily,many do.

Root - you are quite rude and seem rather bitter. 11+ tests that are purely VR/NVR may or may not be tests of potential. 11+ tests that incorporate NC linked English and maths are clearly tests of what level the kids are working at at that point in time. In my experience - which is as valid as yours and relates to a time period of 5 years not just one child in Y6, primary schools can and do push kids to work at the right level for them in both maths and English. And there are grammar schools which are hoping to attract those kids working at high levels by the beginning of Y6. Primary Schools don't purposely hold kids back (until they hit L6- it's a different story after that). If a kid isn't working at the level a grammar school is testing for at the time of the test, doing loads of tutoring to try and close the gap isn't going to do that kid any favours, IMO.

I do think a few past papers of the sort a child will get are reasonable - a child will feel more confident on the day, if nothing else, and feel better about their whole experience.

Other than that, I think it depends a lot of the schools you are applying for OP - I do know several naturally bright kids from dds' primary who went on to schools like SPG, PHS, Ibstock and LEH without any formal tutoring at all. They were kids who loved to learn, were doing very well at their state primary, and had natural aptitude - which good schools hopefully spot in spite of the huge numbers applying, and the fog of parental panic around them

I have no clue about 11+ for grammar schools, as am not in a grammar area - but those independent schools are certainly selective!

rabbit, I do think the system is flawed and actually quite unfair. If it had been down to me Ds wouldn't have done the 11+, but DH wanted him to sit it so I agreed. Maybe my guilt about having done so little to support my bright little boy with his learning over the years has shaped my feelings about this a bit too much. The one area of learning where we have made a concerted effort to consolidate and go beyond what is offered in the classroom - music - he's done very well in and has been offered a bursary and a scholarship at two comprehensive schools which specialise in music.

I wish we'd had him sitting down writing and practicing his maths regularly outside of school, like I've had him practicing his piano, but I complacently thought that as he was regularly getting perfect marks in times tables tests and was in the extension group for maths the fact that he does absolutely sweet fanny Adams at home wasn't an issue.

His cousin has just started at the grammar Ds failed to get into. His mum took him out of his state primary in year 4 and put him in a local private school whose sales pitch to parents includes a banner outside detailing the large number of grammar places their pupils get awarded. My nephew was being taught in a class of 18 well behaved, bright pupils, getting 11+ 'booster' sessions in school and private tutoring outside school. He worked very, very hard for his place. My son on other hand has been in a class of 31 for the last few years, (of whom 3 have significant special needs, including EBD - none of these children has full-time allocated support). His school is OFSTED rated 'good' but has a disproportionately large number of children from disadvantaged homes and is a challenging place to learn and teach. I should have acknowledged that my son was being allowed to coast and that I needed to do what other savvy parents in the school were doing - make up for the lack of focus on the higher achieving children by doing much more with him myself.

But hey ho, water under the bridge, lessons learned. Selection won't be an issue for my youngest as he has ASD and a whole different set of challenges ahead of him.

Rabbit - the point I was making about potential is that the level a child is currently working at in year 6 may well not be indicative of their intelligence or potential. I can find you many examples of adults who've done spectacularly well academically in secondary and at degree level who were not achieving highly at age 11.

Our school was requires improvement for a while,I did nothing until 8 months before. I refuse to feel bad about that.Some parents choose to spend shed loads on music( which will bring uni application advantages),others sports or gadgets.I chose to go without in other areas,buy books and spend a small amount on the above.

Hmm interesting. DS is currently in Y4 and some have started with tutors already.

Seems madness to me.

However, DS is bright but a slow worker. The timing thing will be a real issue so he might need some practice.

LePetit - nobody is blaming you. You did what you could for your child to help them gain access to a good school and I salute you for that.

I'm blaming a system which categorises children at 11 as 'bright enough' or 'not bright enough' to benefit from an academically ambitious education, on the basis of a test of their ability on a particular day, to write an essay and answer maths questions.

Re: the music issue - my children learn music because it's a good thing to do not as a way of advancing them academically. The thing is with music is that it's very unlikely to secure them a place at a good school in the state sector. My ds has been awarded a music scholarship and a bursary at two state schools, but he still has to go through the same selection procedure as everyone else. Scholarship and bursary applicants are put into a smaller pool for the purposes of selection but in the end it amounts to a computer/admin person basically pulling names out of a hat.

Is advancing them academically not a good thing to do?

I know.It just makes me laugh as to what is permissible.

Thousands on music lessons,sports classes and equipment,private schools,language classes,dance classes,football clubs,kit,fixtures etc however a bit of extra work(which will probably work out an awful lot less financially)err no.

Can't afford private so my kids aren't in school from 8- until 4.30 or being ferried from one sporting / music facility to the next(even when reluctant) however they did a bit extra for 8 months.

There seems to be this assumption that the rich deserve and can have their private schools,other kids their interests however parents spending a lot less on extending the education of their dc and actually(dirty word coming up) competing academically is equal to child abuse and the cause of all social inequality.

I want my kids to get into the same unis the rich kids go to,to be stretched academically,I am happy to forgo pricey sports clubs and out of school activities to focus on something else- so sue me.

Oh and I'll also be making sure they do the best they can when doing their GCSEs,A levels and UCAS applications. Why wouldn't I?

I guess I just find this pervading assumption that the rich should be left to get on with giving their kids the contacts,pushing and advantages a private education brings whilst the rest of us should just except far less,lower our expectations for our dc and do sfa to push them as far as they can go worrying.

Others can do that if they wish,I have no intention of doing so.

It's a really good point LePetit.

I think we all want the best for our children and I constantly struggle to find the right balance between pushy and unsupportive.

My DS is quite reluctant to do homework etc. we reinforce that it is important he works hard etc and makes sure it gets done but we don't push him massively to do more. He is keen to learn things though so we visit museums, watch documentaries, build stuff which is unlikely to help him pass his 11+.

He has a friend who is very bright and very pushed. He has a tutor already, even though he's probably the one boy who could pass it tomorrow. He will cheerfully tell you that he is going to the grammar school. No ifs or buts.

I really feel for him as it's an awful lot of pressure to put on an 8 year old boy.

I agree with you about the 'rich kids' thing but the difference is that if they don't pass, they'll probably be ok anyway so that pressure isn't there to the same extent.

They'll spend a life in therapy for a whole host of other reasons

New don't panic.

A lot of the 11+ is down to vocab which will be extended doing all the things you're doing.

In year 4 I'd read a lot to him and hear him read,collect words he doesn't know,learn tables until they're instant and get the basics of writing/maths up to speed.Then up the pace in year 5. To be frank if I'd have started doing loads of extra tutoring before the Jan of year 5 my dc would have got bored with it.They peaked a few months before as it was.

Lepetit - why are you taking this personally?

This is not about your individual choices or judging you as a parent.

My beef is with the system, not with individual parents. There is no 'permissable' or 'non-permissible'. I've never heard anyone saying that it's unethical to tutor, only that a system which has spawned a giant tutoring industry (1 child in 4 in the Uk is now tutored) has undermined the a system of selection which needs to ensure as level a playing field as possible in order to be truly fair and meritocratic.