State primary and grammar without tuition

[jollybloodyhockeysticks]

Just wondering if anyone can share their experiences. Do you have a child who went to a state primary and passed the 11+ without tutoring? Is it imperative to get tutoring for the 11+ if your child is naturally academically bright and excelling in a state primary? Tia x

JustRichmal - I was talking about the long division practice.

DD2 has had very little homework, really. Which is what I expected since that was also the case with DD1. The most onerous home works (in terms of time spent) have been for art, which she is very good at so she doesn't resent having to spend time on it. Seems a bit mad to me though since she won't be doing art GCSE (in contrast, music, which she will be doing for GCSE, has virtually no homework - despite actually being an academic subject. That's the NC for you I suppose).

I have dd2 who is doing a 11+ exam for a so called 'selective' school.She is a level 6 student and generally top of the class in our local school.She has so many gaps in Maths that I'm really shocked ( Letts tests).She's brilliant at the non-verbal but finds the verbal questions hard until they are explained to her.The SATs paper questions in no way correspond to the type of questions requested by a Multi-choice 11+ paper.I should have started practising these papers with her a lot earlier!

Rabbit what is wrong with learning how to do long division if its a weakness. She told ME she can't do it so why wouldn't we work on it? I really don't understand why that would be a problem.

canny what I've found with my DD is that not enough time is spent in her school consolidating maths on certain topics, there is so much hopping around that even though she will have 'got it' during lessons I don't think they do enough on a certain topic for it to sink into long term memory.

Firstly - it shouldn't take an hour to teach how to do long division for someone in Y5 who is aiming for the 11+. Secondly, spending an hour on anything this far out is ridiculous. Thirdly - this is on top of regular tutoring? Excessive is a mild word for it. How long will you be forcing the poor child to study for by August? Most of the people I know whose DC passed the 11+ did not tutoring (including my girls). Those that passed that did some, did little and often - those 10 minute test things. The only person I know who went bonkers and made their child sit for hours more than 6months before the exam, ended up unsuccessful. The amount of effort they felt they 'had' to out in May have been directly related to this fact, it may not have been, we will never know. But it was the non stressed, non burned out kids who succeeded not the one who was worn to a frazzle. Worth thinking about?

Rabbit I wasn't activity teaching her for an hour, I showed her how to do it, we watched a video of how to do it and then we worked side by side doing long division and racing each other on it. The hour was up before we both knew it! And if you tell me that your girls did no tutoring at all, not a single past paper then I don't believe you and you're not being truthful. (Doing work at home is still tutoring but in a home environment just incase you are confused.) So can you honestly say you did NO work at all at home with your DC, ever? Or are you going to be someone who says, "Oh yes we did for, like, two weeks before the exams" all the while buffing their nails.

So, if a child was spending an hour learning a musical instrument for example and having music lessons that would be OK in Rabbit's world (maybe it wouldn't in case it would be considered excessive) but going to a weekly tutor and spending and hour doing long division isn't OK?

Yes I think thats partially the problem.But I also am beginning to realise on the top table she is being left to her own devices so the teacher can concentrate on the poor ones.Many of the terms are totally unfamiliar to her.She really knows very little but is getting 100% in SATs tests .
Well done for working with your child in year 5.I can only applaud you.Its far easier to do nothing and hope for the best.

I'm not confused. My DDs did the mocks organised by the schools to which they were applying. Other than that they didn't do anything because IMO (which proved correct) they didn't need to. And nor did either of them have time, they both play multiple instruments and do theatre (and in the case of DD2, ridiculous amounts of dance) outside school. It's not me that's confused. But thanks for calling me a liar.

Canny I was just talking to DC's tutor on Saturday and saying that DC being on top table gave us a false sense of security, we didn't think maths for the 11+ would be any sort of issue for DD that was until we looked at the 11 + papers and realised that there is a lot that hasn't been covered in school yet. Thank you for your encouragement. I would like to bury my head in the sand and ignore what hasn't been covered in school but I know I can't do that. I used to work in a private school before having children and I know that 11 + material would be covered daily in schoolin Year 5. I used to have to sit there and do the daily tests. There are a lot of private schools in the area and DD being in a state I know what she is up against/competition for places because of what I've seen personally. Also DD's state school rarely has pupils that make it into the grammar. There were no pupils that passed September just gone.

Hmm ime long division takes a bit longer than an hour for kids lumbered with gridding and chunking in school and no previous exposure to it. It is important to get right though as they need it to work things out quickly.

There are hoards of diff areas within the 11+,every child will have something. One of mine had a weakness with rotation,very able at most other maths areas,VR,Eng comp,writing etc.

Well done MinimalistMommi

I have found that Dc1 and I were learning the basics well into the last moment, so don't worry if you have to make sure you make slight detours to reinforce the basics. But also keep on top of the hard stuff.

Today, dc2 has worked very difficult IQ maths, tons of vocab, synonyms and antonyms, and will finish with comprehension and cloze. DC2 is playing the PS4 at the moment, but it is not all work, work, work. To keep dc2 onside I have to 'give a little sugar'

Minim, also the maths part of the 11+ only test the ability of a child and not how they got that ability.

I

Also - you don't have an hour instrumental lesson till you're about grade 7-8 standard. neither Dd1 nor DD2 were that standard in Y5, they were grade 4-5 on all their instruments except piano (DD2 only started piano towards the end of Y6). They did spend more than an hour at theatre group each week but that's different - a large group of kids having fun. I maintain - spending an hour on a topic like long division in addition to an hours tutoring each week (and who knows what else) is either a recipe for burnout of an indication that the DC isn't 11+ standard. It shouldn't be this hard. DD2 doesn't soend an hour a week on her music theory homework and she has her exam sooner than your DC's 11+. I'very been through this process twice, I'm not just making it up as I go along. Personally, I adore recreational maths (something my DCs declare is a myth) but even I'd draw the line at spending an hour on long division. If you were spending an hour on puzzles or algebra (or puzzles involving algebra) then I'd still wonder if it wasn't overkill for a 10 year old but I wouldn't be able to deny that enjoyment aspect. Like I said - if you're at this pitch now, what do you predict August will be like?

So rabbit so it's OK for them to do hours of dance or play a musical instrument but not learn how to do long division at home with a parent because they have told me they don't understand it? If you can say hand on heart that your children do NO other preparation other than a single mock exam on each subject than I'm sorry for suggesting otherwise.

My DC does stage and swimming but we are also getting ready for the 11+. I don't see the problem with that.

Lepetit - oh god, rotation! I could never do that either (dyspraxic) and nor could/can my girls (also dyspraxic). If our 11+ had involved NVR I wouldn't even have bothered entering them, for the same reason, even though they might have scraped through. Mind you in a way they are/were lucky because they knew never to waste any time trying to do it. Just move on is one of the first things a dyspraxic learns. In many areas of life!

When i got to this stage with DC i was sure they could do it but realised that what they really wanted was to be with close friends that made from Primary and carry on education at the main local secondary that had a large intake allowance for the primary, so far looks like it is paying off, it does now sometimes cross my mind if we had at least tried for the 11+ but have to accept it was not to be

Rabbit don't they have to practise?Mine are supposed to do 20mins a day just for grade 3 piano.They don't.

I think spending time getting long division,multiplication,column addition etc like clockwork is crucial. Other areas may not need so long.

Rabbit the hour raced by because we were solving problems together [you 'love' recreational maths, you should understand, when you get involved in something time passes quickly.) It gave me a headache because I'm dysilexic and find it crosses over into numbers for me. As I said up thread, my DD went on to watch TV and was totally relaxed, she didn't seem 'harmed' (shock, horror) by an hours long division. And you asked about August, I doubt she will be still doing long division. Hopefully she will have mastered it by then.

There were 4 mock sessions put in between the two schools. For Dd2. For Dd1 there were just 2. Not sure why they increased it last year. Possibly money (you had to pay and the sessions were packed but for us the first one at each school at least was vital because of the practising the getting there in time thing - the schools are some distance away in opposite directions).

If you can't see the difference between a child pursuing a hobby and being forced to study for the 11+ then I can't help you, I'm afraid.

It seems you only want to hear from parents of successful 11+ students who have followed the same kind of wildly OTT campaign as you are following.

Dd, now 11, often spends an hour with me doing maths, sometimes longer. The hour does just go. She enjoys maths, so I can't see the problem. At grammar, lessons are often an hour long.

LePetit DC's tutor says doing the basics of maths regularly you've described above is crucial. She explained to me that it helps with speed and accuracy.

Rabbit our exam has changed and now has NVR.Dd is doing it and poss dyspraxic,it's her nemesis.It is only a bit of it though- reflection,odd one out etc she's a whizz at.Banking on that. Picks up everything else v quickly although did need an extra session on long division with decimals with me.

Private schools def do jt is a lot earlier,and lots of it.

Panic not though mini my 2 breezed through it last year when others from the local private schools didn't.That said it wasn't CEM.I'm of the opinion if it's meant to be it's meant to be though.

I too seem to be one of the wildly OTT campaigners, or, as I prefer to think of it; a realist.

Rabbit for the record I am not 'forcing' her. She sees the grammar girls around town and in Year Four told me she would like to go to that school and be 'like the grammar school girls.' I explained that in Year Five she would need to go to a tutor especially for the 11+. I don't know where you got this idea of 'force' from?

LePetit - DD1 is 16 and headed for conservatoire, she practices a lot now but didn't do 20 mins every day on any of her instruments when she was in Y5. DD2 also doesn't do 20 minutes a day on any of her instruments except possibly piano, but even then it's not 20 mins every day. DD2 is doing fine without really putting in the effort she could be (she's grade 5/6 on 3 things and grade 2 piano). I'm fine with it for now, if her teachers start saying she's not progressing then I'll give her the choice to practice more or give up. At the moment she is exceeding their expectations so it's not an issue. She will have to cut back at some point though because all the dance she does means she has less time than DD1 had at her age.

However all of this is irrelevant since they might equally be playing minecraft or watching friends, what they do with their spare time is their choice, forcing them to embark on an OTT programme of cramming for the 11+ (and putting a terrible burden of expectation on them) would not have been.