First post: what is wrong with considering private schools?

[dietcokeisgreat]

Dear all,

I just starting looking at mumsnet last week and joined today. Some of my work colleagues talk about it and i am thinking about options for education for my son, who is just 3 and thought i would take a look. Well, i just starting the thinking, so it is early days.
We could pay for school, or maybe not, we don't know yet. He is our first child, we are having problems getting pregnant again, so unsure if there will be more yet.

I was surprised at some really negative comments on lots of threads towards people posting for advice/ whatever about private schools. Why are they doing that? What is wrong with people thinking about different options? Or asking about a school they know that is private? Twice i read something 'well i can't pay for school' as a response. For me, its no different to whether or not people have cash for other stuff. I can't afford to live in the smarter part of town, or pay for a boarding school but that doesn't mean no one should be allowed too!

Just wondering...don't want to post something that will enrage others or be and be upset by responses ....

Thank you.

happygardening I struggle or reconcile the assertions on this thread that bar a few exceptions state education is very good If that is not the case where I live, perhaps you can explain why so many parents are using the local preps. to get their kids into the local state schools. Surely they wouldn't go to that level of expense if the state schools were anything but good. There are some apparently good private schools also close by (although just how good they are is hard to tell as the information available in the public domain is extremely limited). Granted, my area may be unique but I think I am quite right in believing my local state schools are good.

Should I not be basing my judgement on my own experience and should I just blindly go with what I'm being told i.e. private is best?

I think there are a number of reasons why people think their local school isn't good, despite 80% of them being good or better:

• Some people's local schools obviously do fall into the 20% that aren't good enough. I completely agree with posters who feel that tackling this should be the highest priority.

• Some people disagree with Ofsted's assessment of the school. I agree that Ofsted are far from perfect, though I'm not convinced that their judgements are as wide of the mark as many people seem to think.

• Sometimes people judge how good a school is using measures that I think are inappropriate, and so come away with a false impression. Such measures imo include reputation (often very out of date) and raw attainment scores (often a result of intake rather than value added by the school).

• Some people want a different experience for their child from the one they will receive (or think they will receive) in their local school, and are prepared to make sacrifices (paying for private school, moving to be closer to a different state school) to provide that experience. They therefore view their local school through the lens of it falling short of their desires or expectations, however good it might be on more objective measures.

My final point there should have said 'and are prepared and able to make sacrifices...'. Obviously for most people this isn't an option, something that I think is often forgotten in these discussions.

I don't think I have a false idea of what state schools are like. I went to an absolutely fantastic state school and if there had been a similar school where we live, DC would have attended it. We did consider moving at one point to a town with one of the best state schools in Scotland (Linlithgow) but for a variety of reasons decided against it - the school was the only thing swaying me towards moving there.

DD is in the local state primary and I'd say she's surviving it. The school is on its 6th head in 7 years and the lack of consistency in the overall management team has had a tremendous negative impact on the atmosphere. Some individual teachers are outstanding, but overall I can't wait until she leaves there.

For me, I prefer mixing with ordinary down to earth people and I would suspect that they didn't want their kids mixing with the children of poorer people which gives me a bad feeling. It seems like they are saying the local schools are good enough for everyone else's kids but not theirs. For them to choose of course, but it would make me feel different towards someone.

*It seems like they are saying the local schools are good enough for everyone else's kids but not theirs.

I don't think that at all. I don't think DD's school is good enough for anyone! It's a real shame because back when DS attended it years ago it had been a failing school and then the Council brought in a "high flyer" to turn it around. He did an incredible job and the school was transformed. Unfortunately, he was moved on after a couple of years and the school went into an immediate decline and is now sitting in the same place it was nearly a decade ago. Sigh.

Bolding fail.

mum what I was trying to say was that I struggle to reconcile the the assertions on this thread (and others) that state education is very good when so many in so many different areas seem completely dissatisfied with it.
Who is wrong?
Ar does it come down to where you live, your expectations, your individual children?
This is a genuine question.
Why do talkin Halkulyt and other say one thing so fervently but so many say something contradictory?

I suspect most people on MN are vaguely happy with their DC's school and don't have enough passionate feeling about it to post.

"For me I prefer mixing with down to earth people and I would suspect that didn't want their kids mixing with the kids of poorer people"
Utter twoddle. We're not mega wealthy like some of the parents at DS's school it's never been a problem. My DS and his friend from his school mix with children from poorer families and again it's never been a problem.
I personally have never once said the local state schools or for that matter any state school is good enough for other peoples children but not mine! I've spent over 11 years in independent boarding schools and I've never heard anyone else make that assertion either. The parents we know that pay pay because they have the money and they want what top independent usually boarding schools offer, few are deciding between their local state school outstanding or not and Eton et al they are deciding between one big name school over another in most cases state ed isn't even on their radar.

"Why do talkin Halkulyt and other say one thing so fervently but so many say something contradictory?"

Many of the most fervent have had no first hand contact with state schools since their own school days- if then.

Also. What Amber so eloquently said.

But Taz they do post, endless threads about appealing against allocated school, moving to get into the catchment area for St Elsewhere, tutoring from a ridiculously early age for the 11+ so that Jonny won't end up at the high school, parents asking questions about bursaries so that they won't have to send their DC to the nearest state school, threads about struggling to afford fees and I've never ventured over to the home ed (wince) section but I bet few on their are singing the praises of state ed! And then their specific threads about those dissatisfied with streaming (or is it setting), the books their children are being asked to read, the prep, and so it goes on. If you want to really depress yourself go onto the special needs sections where countless parents are complaining about how their children SENs are not being met in either sector.
So what are those of you who believe that generally state ed is good saying? These parents are all wrong? That the vast majority of schools are excellent? Are these parents being wound up by the media, other parents they meet in the park/swimming pool, parents on here or perhaps as I suggested earlier they just have too high expectations.

I have first hand experience of outstanding state schools as I said I'm always come away disappointed and underwhelmed. If people ask me about DS1 school I always say cautiously "it's OK."
Hakluyt I don't have to explain my position I'm asking you and others who so firmly believe that state education is generally good to explain yours when so many who have DC's in the state sector or are desperately trying to not have or remove their Dc's from the state sector are saying something else. Do you genuinely think they are just simply wrong? If they're are all so wrong how has this arisen? Maybe it's historical they fail to realise or see that things have changed, they had a crap time in state ed and therefore so will their DC.

Oh, yes, Happy, I was thinking too narrowly and just of the private vs state threads where I swear it seems as though it's the same half dozen people (sometimes including myself!) or so saying the same things over and over again.

I think the general view is that expectations are too high, though I don't think they are too high. I remember once having a moan that DD's primary school had dropped their open evening where the Head would give a talk about the school and recent attainment levels and then you'd go to individual classrooms to find out the sorts of topics and Maths content etc your child would be studying that year. I was immediately pounced upon for having too high expectations of the school- and here I thought such evenings were normal.

happygardening mum what I was trying to say was that I struggle to reconcile the the assertions on this thread (and others) that state education is very good when so many in so many different areas seem completely dissatisfied with it. Do you feel there is a sufficient enough sample on MN to make any conclusions either way? I don't.

happygardening Ar does it come down to where you live, your expectations, your individual children? personally I think it is a combination of all three TBH.

Where I feel the debate about whether state or private is best fall down is the lack of comparable data to allow any meaningful unbiased opinions to be formed. Why are so many private schools absent from the league tables? Why do private schools not promote their value add and academic performance in relation to their high, middle and low academic attainers etc. For me the apparent lack of transparency does lead me to question much of what is said. Not because I simply can't believe it but because it carries more weight if it can be qualified.

"Hakluyt I don't have to explain my position" I'm not asking you to am I? Sorry if it sounded as if I was.

The fact is that if you have experience of a school like your son's you wouldn't be human not to be a little underwhelmed by any state school. But it's like finding cod a little disappointing after a diet of Dover sole.

Of course there are some rubbish state schools. There are rubbish schools in all sectors. But one thing I have observed is that people are far less willing to acknowledge that a private school is rubbish. There are threads on here where people give private school chance after chance - even when posters are yelling "Get that child out of there!!"- perhaps because they don't want to admit they've made a dodgy decision- perhaps because they've bought the lie that private has to be better, so anywhere else they might send him must be worse.

And, as someone said, most people who are broadly happy with their child's school aren't posting. And when they do on threads like this, they are ignore or treated as anomalies.

happygardening to be fair I think you are far more likely to come across people moaning about state education than private because if you are allocated a place at a state school and it doesn't work out it is easy to lay the blame on the school or the government (not enough good schools etc. and the decision is pretty much taken out of peoples hands as choice is a thing of the past for many areas) than it is to admit that you have just wasted thousands of pounds on a bad decision you made in selecting the wrong private school.

Perhaps I'm wrong and everyone who has experienced private school has had an amazing experience, after all on MN I see very little to suggest to the contrary.

I appreciate this may sound like anyone going private is setting themselves up for a fall. Far from it, I do know people who are very happy with the outcome but I also know people (family) who are not.

My only experience with the state sector is my own DC's school. It's outstanding, oversubscribed and looks like a chocolate box.

The pastoral care is good, the socialisation is good. It is a safe place, the teachers are generally kind.

For primary school it is fine; lovely even.

HOWEVER, I am academically underwhelmed and cannot allow my children to continue learning the bare minimum right through secondary school. If this is "outstanding," it's not up to my standards. Luckily, it's a free country, and I am allowed to make the ultimate decisions about my children's upbringing and education. We will be bailing out at 11 for private. My money will be spent on great teaching. Not rolling lawns or plummy accents.

I am truly sorry that other people aren't able to make the same choice. I am a member of the "sharp elbowed" middle class. My dc's presence at the school didn't change anything for the other children at the school. The idea that depriving schools of children like mine will hurt the remaining children is tosh. I have been nagging for years that the dc could all do more, learn more. No one pays any mind. Yes, all the middle class kids who are being tutored outside school by desperate parents do raise SAT results. But it doesn't help less privileged children sitting next to them in anyway. It just masks the problem by artificially pumping up SAT results.

"am academically underwhelmed and cannot allow my children to continue learning the bare minimum right through secondary school."

Can I ask why you think you will be doing that?

Reading with interest after reading the other thread talking about unfairness in admission criteria.

I have found that more people moan about what their dc are doing and the general system of state education than they do private education.

I would choose private or H.ed over any state school because I don't think they are a good enough fit for my child. Having already experienced state ed with 2 grown up dc it would be my last resort.

It may seem unfair that some dc get a private education and some don't, but no more unfair than some families having expensive holidays, more spent at xmas, bigger houses, specialised extra curricular tuition, 2 or 3 large cars per family etc.

Life isn't fair and we aren't all equal in terms of earnings and or inherited wealth.

HOWEVER, I am academically underwhelmed and cannot allow my children to continue learning the bare minimum right through secondary school.

We were in the same position (though the school was in no way outstanding) and it was depressing. I was horrified to find that it was across our whole area as well. When DS started at his private school we quickly found that he had big gaps in his maths knowledge. He had to do an awful lot of catching up to do to match the knowledge of the children from the Edinburgh state schools. Later in the year I was chatting to a mum at DS' swimming club. Her daughter had started at another Edinburgh private school and not only did she find the same thing with her daughter and math, but the school had recognised the problem several years before and now at her school, all children from our Council area are given remedial maths until the catch up with the Edinburgh children (usually by the Oct break).

I had been naive enough to think that the schools in different areas were actually teaching children to the same standards. Silly me.

I personally know people who moan about their private schools.

Parents who moan quietly about the over-pushy ultra academic girls school, but only to trusted people as: well it has that reputation, so you should have known thats what you were getting for your money. More moan about the use of GTP type trainees at a school - as that is not what they were paying for. Moans about virtual bullying by staff to get outstanding grades at the "gentler girls school".

Oh an moans that a certain Prep is full of the children of builders nowadays (not people like us).

With local state schools the main moans are: you can't get into A unless you are a Catholic anymore, B is so big, and C the new head is cracking down very hard and changing the feel. For D the comments are normally about whether you take a chance and risk it, as its mainly in the poorer part of town, and E is either raving about how good it is or worrying if it will be someones only option.

People don't moan about the boys private school, although I have known boys leave because it didn't suit them in the past; but the entry criteria has got so strict the probably wouldn't get in now.

I'm not sure shy it's being assumed that I and others haven't experience of the state sector. I have taught in it on and off for 20yrs both at primary and secondary. The schools I was referring to last night were, in case anyone is that interested, in Salford. There is virtually no use of the private sector nor is there a bunch if selective schools creaming off the top. Despite this, there are a number of failing secondaries. Even those rated good still have relatively poor attainment.

I too was underwhelmed by my catchment outstanding primary. High sats results but nothing else. Nothing I was looking for in a school. So I pay and I get what I want from a school and my kids live it as do I.

I am just exasperated when people say things like "no state school would be a good enough fit for my child". What, really? No state school at all?????

I think that people who claim that the presence of their motivated, intelligent child (from a motivated, educated family) in a class makes no difference are wrong. I think the presence or absence of even one child can make a difference in a group of 20 to 30, and losing significant numbers of such children can significantly, and negatively, affect the experience of the other children.

Saying you're happy to advantage your own children even if it disadvantages others is at least honest, even if I find that attitude rather depressing. Refusing to acknowledge that the decisions we make affect others is, I think, disingenuous.