First post: what is wrong with considering private schools?

[dietcokeisgreat]

Dear all,

I just starting looking at mumsnet last week and joined today. Some of my work colleagues talk about it and i am thinking about options for education for my son, who is just 3 and thought i would take a look. Well, i just starting the thinking, so it is early days.
We could pay for school, or maybe not, we don't know yet. He is our first child, we are having problems getting pregnant again, so unsure if there will be more yet.

I was surprised at some really negative comments on lots of threads towards people posting for advice/ whatever about private schools. Why are they doing that? What is wrong with people thinking about different options? Or asking about a school they know that is private? Twice i read something 'well i can't pay for school' as a response. For me, its no different to whether or not people have cash for other stuff. I can't afford to live in the smarter part of town, or pay for a boarding school but that doesn't mean no one should be allowed too!

Just wondering...don't want to post something that will enrage others or be and be upset by responses ....

Thank you.

"Even those rated good still have relatively poor attainment"

How do they manage that? Attainment is one of the key criteria OFSTED look at. If the kids aren't making adequate progress the school won't get "good"

Amber

It doesn't necessarily make a difference to other children though.
It depends on the area you live.
Allowing my dd to go to a private school miles away has no bearing at all on the other thousands in our area, because they will all go to the same type of schools, the best being good, the worst being satisfactory/special measures.
There are no ss, or grammar, or private schools in our area.
So, our decision doesn't affect anybody else.

Even if it did though, you need to look at what is best for your child not Joe Bloggs down the road, in return I wouldn't expect Mr Bloggs to consider my child in his decision.

As a supply teacher I get to see a massive variety of schools, and definitely agree that the gulf between the worst and the best stated schools is much larger that the difference between the best state school and the indie sector. I find it endlessly fascinating that MNetters are so exercised about people choosing indie (which is a no-brainer if you have an able child and he cash to do so) rather than those who play the system ( religion or tutoring) to get a free education that is vastly better than most of the schools people are allocated in the state system.

"find it endlessly fascinating that MNetters are so exercised about people choosing indie (which is a no-brainer if you have an able child and he cash to do so)"

It isn't, you know!

And I think you'll find that people are pretty exercised about other unfairnesses in the education system too- just look at any thread about selection or faith schools. It just happens that this thread is about private schools. wishes there was an extra circle of hell for people who say indie

In our area people aren't really bothered which school they are allocated and don't really appeal for a particular school.
The three choices are really only down to personal preference and where friends are going.
There is little variation in the schools and there isn't a particular one that out shines others.
Maybe a couple of children in the town per year go to the private secondary in the next town, but there isn't many at all.
If you were to compare the difference in state schools here and the good sec moderns in the south the differences would be immense, I know this from reading threads on here.
So I agree with MsHerodotus on the point of the differences between state schools being far greater than best state and private.
So to disagree with private education would be to deny the children whose parents could afford private or ss schools in the areas surrounding ours, which to me would stop any chance of social mobility.

Amber that motivated intelligent might not be motivated and even be disruptive in the wrong setting. A DC that has to do very little work to get similar results to others is not going to help the effort motivation of their cohort. A DC who can continually chatter to others and disrupt their attention but still do extremely well is not going to help the others. A DC that is disengaged and slips under the radar or takes up teachers' time for differentiation is not going to benefit other pupils.
What you want is a hard working, well behaved moderately bright DC from a family with oodles of time to participate in school life.

MustChooseASecondary Do parents really tutor for SATs? Why do they do that? Genuine question BTW as the only tutoring that my DCs will get is to prepare for 11 plus (which tends to make SATs look like a walk in the park TBH).

One of the key arguments made by people in favour of selection is that bright children need a critical mass of other bright children around them in order to reach their potential. Why do the same people often dismiss the effect of removing a percentage of the same bright children from a class?

And no, I'm not claiming that all children that go to private school are bright, but a significant number are.

Taz1212 I had been naive enough to think that the schools in different areas were actually teaching children to the same standards. Silly me. So there is complete consistency across all private schools. Now that's an interesting claim.

NancyJones in Salford. There is virtually no use of the private sector I'm wondering if that will change with the relocation of the BBC.

Amber In my examples above a bright child can actually be detrimental to the progress of a class. Bright children with other bright children can be taught at roughly the same pace with a more efficient use of resources. Or they can be taught in more mixed ability but with teachers who have a lot more time to devote to all the children in the class.
Also demanding MC parents can also be a sap on teacher time so again diluting resource for others

NancyJones I have taught in it on and off for 20yrs both at primary and secondary. The schools I was referring to last night were,..., in Salford. There is virtually no use of the private sector nor is there a bunch if selective schools creaming off the top. Do non of the children in Salford try for Trafford Grammar schools?:

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/search.php?keywords=salford&terms=all&author=&fid%5B%5D=25&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

"Even if it did though you need to look at what is best for your child not Jo Bloggs child down the road"
This is ultimately the nub of the whole debate most parents when the chips are down do what is best for their child. If we don't personally like what is on offer some might have to find God temporarily, some move, some tutor, but some of are in a fortunate enough position to pay to get what we want.
I have great admiration and respect for those who are able to consider Jo Bloggs child as well as their own but I'm afraid I'm unable to do this. I like what my DS's school offers. I like the ethos, the teaching, the fact that it's very selective, the regular concerts/lectures/plays/exhibitions, I like it's quirkiness, that they just do things differently, and I believe in boarding. I even like the beautiful peaceful setting with it's Mediaeval architecture. I don't believe it's available anywhere in the state sector I have the recourses to fund it so I do. I'm unconvinced his presence or not in our our outstanding local academy makes that much difference. But I do firmly believe that going to his school rather that our local outstanding comp makes an enormous positive difference to him.
mummy of course parents in the private sector moan! I moan sometimes especially when we have to pick them up at 9 am on a Saturday; why? So do most parents we know, and some have a genuine reason to moan, I know children who been treated shockingly badly by big name and less well know independent schools. And you right why stay and pay to be treated like crap. I have to say I've never heard anyone complain about too many builders but then I feel strongly about this kind if thing so maybe they don't do it when I around. But I find that many parents in the state sector are not exactly ecstatic about their state school, the many families I meet through work, just as in the independent sector some moan about trivial things but some grievances are pretty genuine many are simply underwhelmed if not unhappy. Of course the big difference is that most are not so free to move their DC.
Mum DS2's school is absent from the league tables like others of it's ilk, although it publishes it's Pre U results on it's website, but not it's IGCSE results. Frankly I don't really know anything about value added scores I've never heard of such a thing until I joined MN and have never read one! I personally feel that his school is transparent when it comes to academic outcomes, their aims are clearly stated. I trust them to do the right thing.
Taz unlike you I and I suspect most other parents as DS2 school, have absolutely no desire to attend talks by the head about attainment levels or know what math will be studied next year. But this doesn't make me right and you wrong we are all different perhaps it is because we all have different expectations that some pay hoping that their individual expectations are going to be being met.
I've spent nearly 30 years working in the public sector in an attempt to make it fair for everyone we have developed an over regulated and IMO often mediocre one size fits all ethos.

I think there is a huge assumption that parents who choose independent schools do so simply to buy an unfair academic advantage. Plenty choose this route because their children have additional needs which cannot be met by the state system (larger classes etc).

Do you really think independent schools have no children with SEN?

Slightly champing the subject I'm interested to know what people think will happen to state education in the future. In my branch of the public sector (our money is apparently ring fenced and rising in line with inflation, we have now gone past "being on our knees" we are know lying face down in the mud and being shot at. The future those in our care both adults and children is frankly fuckin awful, there is simply no money left. I have never seen it as bad as this before. Paraphrasing Neil Kinnock "if this government wins next May I warn you not to be ordinary. I warn you not to be young. I warn you not to fall ill. I warn you not to get old."

Happygardening
There are indeed dozens if not hundreds of threads on MN about schools and appeals
HOWEVER

There are as many threads on private school admissions than there are private school places in the UK : MN is a surreal subset of the population where half of kids can afford private school and £100k is a sensible salary

If you look at the threads about private schools / selection / appeals .......
they always seem to contain the same small number of posters, many of whom do not even use state schools so are basing their prejudice on .... well prejudice.

In 2013 632,397 pupils finished KS4 in England, of whom 571,325 were at State schools.
Are there half a million threads a year complaining about State schools?
No.
Funny that.
The perception about state schools one gets on MN is distorted spectacularly from the reality.

lionheart
Do you really think independent schools have no children with SEN?
assuming you mean mainstream fee paying schools,
the DfE tables clearly show that there are stuff all SEN kids at fee paying schools probably other than high level aspergers

Nothing to worry about, there, happygardening, we're all going to die in the ebola pandemic, anyway.

"I'm unconvinced his presence or not in our our outstanding local academy makes that much difference."

I can understand why you think one fewer or one more child in a state school, no matter how talented, makes no difference, but can you not see how having a whole cohort missing from state schools in some areas DOES make a difference?

In my area 15% of children are educated privately.

If you believe that schools are communities (I do) which rise and fall on the strength and input of ALL their members, then surely you must accept that creating a system of social apartheid in education is damaging to children?

"there is simply no money left."

If there is money for fairly large tax cuts in the future (as promised by the Tories), there is money for education.

talkin as I clearly stated above, twice I think, I'm not just talking about those who post on MN, I find amongst families at work that many moan about the state school their child attends, like in the independent sector some moan about the most trivial of things or clearly haven't investigated properly what their school actually offers but others complaints are pretty genuine. I get the general feeling that many are not necessary disillusioned but just simply underwhelmed they wonder if somewhere else might be better. Those who ask about my children education when I tell them in the vast majority of cases state that they too would pay if they could afford it.

I can only assume that OFSTED's standards and mine are not the same.

I find it hard to believe that my DDs are so wonderful that everyone is elevated just by their presence.

My eldest has experienced some resentment from classmates for doing well. I can understand this, but ultimately her well being and development is my direct responsibility.

I completely understand people who cannot afford private school being annoyed by people who can. I wish we could afford prep school as well as secondary We can't.

Frustrated families in my area would benefit greatly from more selective state schools. Or school vouchers. Or tax breaks against private fees. I think all of these are politically impossible.

If people had genuine choice. There would be a rush for the exists.

Just curious Amber, do your DC go to a grammar?

Talkinpeace. Can you imagine being a single mother from Salford, with no academic qualifications and little money, posting about what to look for in a secondary school. This site must be the most intimidating place on earth, for anyone who is not in any of these groups to post on . : University Educated ,A High paying Career, kids at Grammar school , kids at Prep/Boarding school, kids with high academic potential. Anyone who basically is not in the top 10% of society , either through wealth or education is not represented on this site.

Talkinpeace you are correct to say this is a cult site for the top 10% of society .
MNHQ should issue a disclaimer stating "In no way do you will think the views of our posters represent 90% of the general population of the United Kingdom".

MustChooseASecondary Frustrated families in my area would benefit greatly from more selective state schools. TBH if they are having to tutor their children for the SATs I really do have to question whether they would be up to the academic standard of a grammar school.

sorry I believe schools can be communities and never more so than in a boarding school! But I also believe passionately in a broad intellectually stimulating education where learning is not just done to pass exams or improve your position in league tables but simply because it there because in a few years time when no one cares about your exam results the fact that you can still identify a Canaletto from a Giotto and understand some of the symbolism will bring you an inner satisfaction essential in the 21 st century with all it's problems. I believe I can only find this depth and quality of education at my DS2's school so I'm afraid the concept of "social apartheid" although Im not completely sure if education is at the root of this pfor me is significantly less important.
Rabbit we're not of course because it's not going to a problem in the developed world which is why so little is being actually done. That and their black of course and as the past has shown us with the appalling genocides in Rwanda and the Congo that the white Western world doesn't really care about Africa.