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Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

First post: what is wrong with considering private schools?

999 replies

dietcokeisgreat · 07/10/2014 14:12

Dear all,

I just starting looking at mumsnet last week and joined today. Some of my work colleagues talk about it and i am thinking about options for education for my son, who is just 3 and thought i would take a look. Well, i just starting the thinking, so it is early days.
We could pay for school, or maybe not, we don't know yet. He is our first child, we are having problems getting pregnant again, so unsure if there will be more yet.

I was surprised at some really negative comments on lots of threads towards people posting for advice/ whatever about private schools. Why are they doing that? What is wrong with people thinking about different options? Or asking about a school they know that is private? Twice i read something 'well i can't pay for school' as a response. For me, its no different to whether or not people have cash for other stuff. I can't afford to live in the smarter part of town, or pay for a boarding school but that doesn't mean no one should be allowed too!

Just wondering...don't want to post something that will enrage others or be and be upset by responses ....

Thank you.

OP posts:
Kewcumber · 07/10/2014 16:57

Ok - in my case it made the difference between a life lived in poverty and a life lived in comfort. My DS is in a state school and is getting a decent education so others choosing to educate privately around here when I can't afford to chose private for him isn't be an issue for me.

Saying that only the middle classes appreciate what they're missing out on is a tad patronising don't you think. My working class family are perfectly capable of understanding.

MustChooseASecondary · 07/10/2014 16:57

We are in Greenfizzwater's group 3. Most of our friends and neighbours are either in group 3 or group 2. Many, from either of these groups, for different reasons, masquerade in group 4.

We went with our very nice CofE primary school. It's been pretty good. Community, good pastoral care, pleasant surroundings, free. However, and it's a big however, the academics are woeful in my humble opinion. It's not really the school's fault. They are following the national curriculum. They also philosophically disagree with setting the children at ability tables etc. At a state school, they are supposed to differentiate the work to suit all ability levels. In my experience, at our nice school, in our leafy suburb, this does not actually happen.

I don't regret our choice, because frankly we could not have afforded prep-school. BUT, we are throwing everything behind sending our 2 DDs to private secondary school. It means big sacrifices for us, but we are lucky to able to make them. After 7 years in the state system, it's my opinion that the system does not adequately differentiate for pupils of different abilities.

AgaPanthers · 07/10/2014 16:58

there are private schools up north, but fewer. Very few of the most prestigious private schools are in the north.

Compare:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/education/school_tables/secondary/12/html/eng_maths_815.stm?compare= NY

Top schools:

#1 - state grammar
#2 - state grammar
#3 - state grammar
#4 - state comprehensive
#5 - private
#6 - state religious
#7 - state religious
#8 - state comprehensive

with

www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/education/school_tables/secondary/12/html/eng_maths_936.stm?compare= - Surrey

#1 - private
#2 - private
#3 - private
#4 - private
#5 - private
#6 - private
#7 - private
#8 - private
#9 - private
#10 - private
#11 - private
#12 - private
#13 - private
#14 - private
#15 - private
#16 - private
#17 - private
#18 - private
#19 - private
#20 - private
#21 - state fee-paying school
#22 - private
#23 - private
#24 - private
#25 - private

Also all 25 of the top schools in Surrey, all of which cost money, beat the best private school in North Yorkshire.

Yes you can go private in N. Yorkshire, but it's far from the same decision it is in the London area.

jonicomelately · 07/10/2014 17:07

sorryforher
I love Alan Bennett but I think he should be mindful of the fact that he had the benefit of a grammar school education. That epitomises unfairness in many peoples' minds.

dietcokeisgreat · 07/10/2014 17:09

Goodness me! So many replies. Thank you everybody, some useful explanations and thoughts. Feeling better about getting a range of responses.

I will read some more and think about questions. I should add that I went to UK state schools in an area where lots of neigbours etc were at independent schools but i had friends in both sectors and didnt think much about it. My sister went to an independent secondary from age 14+ as my parents moved ( i had gone to uni) and she didnt settle in the new local school. My husband is british but was living in the states with his family for most of childhood and went to a fee paying school. So various family experiences.

My son appears 'normal' with no special abilities or needs at present! he goes to a chain-run private preschool, mainly as he was at nursery there and it is 4mins walk from home and does up to 6pm which is helpful for us. We are happy with that.

I guess i need to investigate local options and consider our priorities.

I also need to explore some other forums here....

OP posts:
Hakluyt · 07/10/2014 17:11

"I love Alan Bennett but I think he should be mindful of the fact that he had the benefit of a grammar school education. That epitomises unfairness in many peoples' minds."

So he shouldn't speak on the subject? Hmm

TalkinPeace · 07/10/2014 17:17

OP
To be honest you need to ignore the mortar lobbing and do what is right and best for you and your family.

The only real caveat I would add on many private schools is to make sure that you are actually getting value for the amount of money you hand them.

If your state school options are decent and without fees you could live life to the full and enrich your children's lives, its a heck of a decision to make.

If you can afford it and your state school choices are dire, or your particular private school choice is a corker, go for it.

Heels99 · 07/10/2014 17:17

I would add group five, those who can afford it but the local state schools are so good they choose the state option. Included in this group,would be those with children at state grammars or religious schools that suit their specific religion and where there is very goodstate provision.

Op check the fees at secondary level where you are.

Am I right in thinking that day school fees have increased massively over recent years?

MsHerodotus · 07/10/2014 17:19

*think most people who have any moral stance are willing to acknowledge that postcode issues and faith discrimination are also deeply unfair and wrong.

Roll on the state bringing in lottery system admissions for state schools, and banning selection by faith.*
Excellent post. All state schools are not equal! As others have said, Alan Bennett had the luxury of a northern grammar - his world is not our world.
We chose state primary as we live on the doorstep of a great one. DS1 - in Y3, his teacher recommended we go indie as he was way ahead of his peers. So he and his bro' are in a top indie secondary. We chose it over the local super selective grammar as an Oxbridge don who is friend of mine said that it was no-brainer - they would be better taught in the indie..
I am a state secondary teacher, and I have to agree - for high fliers, if you can afford it, it is a no-brainer.
If you would struggle financially, or if they are not high achievers, save the cash and opt for the best state you can find.

Hoppinggreen · 07/10/2014 17:24

I want the school for my DD that best meets her needs and the needs of us all as a family.
As it happens at Primary this was a state school but at secondary it's most likely to be Grammar or private. We can afford the Private school but it would be more comfortable for us with a bursary so we are pursuing that option at the moment, along with Grammar.
DH was always very anti Private Education until we had DC and now he's totally changed his mind.

jonicomelately · 07/10/2014 17:28

Where did I say he couldn't speak on the subject Confused Hmm

MarriedDadOneSonOneDaughter · 07/10/2014 17:33

I second Talkinpeace.

Unless the fees are of no financial consequence to you, there needs to be a very compelling reason to justify them. Clearwater between what the school offers vs what the state options offer - measured by what you value in a school for you child.

For example, if you value academic achievement highly and want to get the best on that front, a lot of private schools seem to deliver only what you would expect of a cohort that sits a test to get in. If that was my focus, I would want to know why that school is going to do better for my child than my child might do elsewhere. Not sure I made that point very well ....

Doodledot · 07/10/2014 17:58

My only gripe is when people automatically seem to assume that state schools are rubbish and don't go and view with an open mind. State schools have so much to offer and it's sad that on some areas a 2 tier system results as people run to avoid state

skylark2 · 07/10/2014 19:26

You have to do what's right for your kids - provided it's practical. My kids are at private schools, but there are some we looked at (because we could afford the fees) and some we didn't even consider because we couldn't afford them. And of course we looked at the state schools too. They both started off in the state school system. Of course we'd rather not pay, all things being equal! But they very much weren't equal. DS in particular was having a miserable time and learning nothing.

Greenfizzywater · 07/10/2014 19:29

Giving in more thought, Hakluyt , I have known quite a few people in group 4 when their kids started primary. It's amazing how, if you can afford it, those principles melt away when you get to secondary.......

AgaPanthers · 07/10/2014 19:31

"For example, if you value academic achievement highly and want to get the best on that front, a lot of private schools seem to deliver only what you would expect of a cohort that sits a test to get in. "

'That sits a test'? All private schools have tests. They don't necessarily mean anything though. Some places if you don't get into school A you go to school B, then school C, then school D, etc. All of the schools might have tests, but realistically speaking private schools, as a whole, take all children who have parents willing to pay.

Since private schools generally don't publish value added figures, it's hard to tell. Although the independent school sector as a whole beats the grammar school sector.

MumTryingHerBest · 07/10/2014 19:57

AgaPanthers Personally for me the most unedifying thing is the parents who insist it is unfair and then spend lots of time and money getting into some very oversubscribed state school. Especially those who use fee paying prep. schools to gain entrance to state schools who insist children sit the 11 plus.

MumTryingHerBest · 07/10/2014 20:05

MsHerodotus We chose it over the local super selective grammar as an Oxbridge don who is friend of mine said that it was no-brainer - they would be better taught in the indie.. do you mind me asking which super selective it was. Just hoping it's not the same one near me (which could be quite possible given how few of them there are).

MumTryingHerBest · 07/10/2014 20:10

AgaPanthers do you get the same results if you order by A/AS-level points per pupil?

Tansie · 07/10/2014 20:33

To me, the reason it raises hackles is, quite simply, that it's unfair. Alan Bennett was correct.

If you take 2 identical DC in terms of background and intellect; educate one privately, the other in a non-selective state, the chances are heavily weighted in favour of the privately educated one that they will ultimately do better in life, via the commonly accepted denominators of 'better'. They'll be richer; have more choice; live in a nicer area, in a bigger house; will educate their own DC privately and thus the cycle will be perpetuated.

The 'standard B grade' DC will get an A in private; a B in state. Russell Group unis will draw a line according to perceived attainment. (I won't be looking at Oxbridge here as that's a separate issue). The privately educated DC will get the place.

And why shouldn't they?

They 'know the score', no political boats will be rocked; they have been forensically guided in how to maximise marks-per-answer in their exams; they're in small classes, taught by people whose income is dependent on grade-output; they have no disruption or SEN- even 'different ability!- to sideline the teacher. Ideal Russell Group material, I'd've said, were I a RG Admissions Bod.

The other issue not to be overlooked is that if a DC's parents can afford private, it's because they, themselves, have financially succeeded. They have done so because they are a bit 'cleverer' that those around them, and they will pass their 'clever' genes on to their DC who therefore might also be cleverer. I 'get' that this phenomenon can tend to be ignored by the left-wing press.

However, however...

Let's momentarily consider the rise of the proletariat with the advent of The Grammar School. interesting programme. The long and short is that The Establishment needed to educate a lower-ranking officer class in order to intellectually oversee Empire and Industry. These DC were drawn from the great unwashed. At the time, a nod and a wink in the right direction got Alphonse into Eton as he was Of The Manner Born. There was no competition. Then- suddenly- who were these bloody upstarts? Passing O levels, A levels, threatening Alphonse's God Given place at Cambridge? SO Eton, Harrow, Oxbridge, et al, upped their game... or maybe changed their game. Instead of inculcating Classics into Alf, they focused on getting him through these O and A levels. Which, with the level of input to hand, he did. Daddy's old alma mater at Cambs helped of course, but...Equilibrium restored.

Thus, today, although the state educates 93% of DC, RG unis have something like 40% of their intake from the private sector. Allowing for 'clever genes', that's still unequal.

The government are something like 57% privately educated. I need not go there in terms of 'equality'. CEOs and the people who actually are in charge, those with their hand on the financial tiller, are also vastly, if not more so, privately educated.

This isn't because they're over-all 'cleverer', more astute, better than the rest of us, it's because they made a) the contacts and b) learned 'the walk' at private schools. They understand the mutual requirements of keeping each other 'in power' via money and/or influence, therefore, Rich.

The 'state' have done what they thought they could. They got rid of selection (but not in 140-ish schools...), figuring that there's no reason why all DC of all abilities cannot be educated together, though maybe streamed or 'set'. Note this was a Tory policy. But no one DARED take on the power and might of the Private Sector. Too Hard, therefore not addressed. even their charitable status Shock. Why? Because those in a position to influence change had their own DC in, at best, private schools; at worst selective grammars. Quite simply. Self-interest writ large.

So, to answer the OP, go, go, go private (good! A good private! Do not be fooled!). You are buying advantage in a world that tacitly accepts this reality. There is nothing 'wrong' with your choice. Yes, it further entrenches the inequalities that hold back and strangles British Society; it may in future, looking back, be recognised as a massively divisive, unfair and ultimately counter-productive force at work in C21 UK; but, if I had the choice, I'd be buying an education that can ride rough-shod over your DC because, when it comes to one's own DC, channelling diane abbott that's all that matters.

And I mean that. Do what you can to advantage your DC over everyone else's. It ain't attractive; it ain't pretty. It's understandable. Just don't tell us you're doing it because of 'the art/drama/sport', thanks.

AmberTheCat · 07/10/2014 21:12

You have an interesting view on the world, Tansie. Quite often when I read your posts I find myself nodding in agreement at half the things you say, and throwing my hands up in despair at the other half.

skylark2 · 07/10/2014 21:33

Wow, Tansie. Did you mean to be that rude?

I sent my DCs to schools because they were the best schools for my DCs, not to "advantage them over everyone else's."

Yes, really.

Tansie · 07/10/2014 21:33

You have to define, then defend which 'halfs' you agree with, Amber.

No one gets out alive.

Or at least, not with a RG degree Smile

feelingmellow · 07/10/2014 21:38

Nothing wrong at all but you have to be prepared for some nasty and uncalled for comments about it. It tends to bring out the worst in some people.

Tansie · 07/10/2014 21:42

No, skylark- I do not see myself as 'rude'- just 'honest'. Maybe... 'real?' Unless, by 'rude' you mean 'unsettling'. Frightening the horses, maybe?....

Sorry if that unsettles you.

You must read again, and maybe deeper and see that I have defended private-buying parents' right to 'buy'. If you disagree with my sentiments, by all means, defend your stance. Just your MN use: 'did you mean to be so rude?' - does not fortify anyone's position. It's sloppy and would earn any Y9, private schooled DC the remark 'Explain your point, Give examples'.

As you were.