First post: what is wrong with considering private schools?

[dietcokeisgreat]

Dear all,

I just starting looking at mumsnet last week and joined today. Some of my work colleagues talk about it and i am thinking about options for education for my son, who is just 3 and thought i would take a look. Well, i just starting the thinking, so it is early days.
We could pay for school, or maybe not, we don't know yet. He is our first child, we are having problems getting pregnant again, so unsure if there will be more yet.

I was surprised at some really negative comments on lots of threads towards people posting for advice/ whatever about private schools. Why are they doing that? What is wrong with people thinking about different options? Or asking about a school they know that is private? Twice i read something 'well i can't pay for school' as a response. For me, its no different to whether or not people have cash for other stuff. I can't afford to live in the smarter part of town, or pay for a boarding school but that doesn't mean no one should be allowed too!

Just wondering...don't want to post something that will enrage others or be and be upset by responses ....

Thank you.

happygardening mum I think you need to read Eton's website 100% bursaries are available to new applicant as well as existing pupils. who they are available to and who is getting them are two different things aren't they? To make the claim that 100% bursaries are widening the access, surely there needs to be something more than the fact that the bursaries exist to make this claim?

Hakluyt- it hasn't, mainly because the school is now made up of the children of the children I went to school with.

mum I don't know enough about it but I do know they've only very recently moved over to offering 100% bursaries before this they were only really guaranteeing a 50% bursary. If you are genuinely interested contact them I'm sure they'll tell you the individuals names are confidential but not the actual numbers. Win Coll sends all parents an annual report in it it actually listed the numbers on and size of bursaries offered including I think how many joining the school that yr who were offered bursaries.

Bursaries are lovely but they only cover the fees.

They do not cover the extras like uniform and sport and trips and travel.

Sorry but I'll be utterly gobsmacked if any of those bursaries go to kids whose parents or grandparents had not been to private school.

But the most insidious discrimination comes when they leave University.
Internships : the essential "experience" needed to apply for jobs are only available to the rich.

Public Sector recruitment : My issue there is that far too many SPADs and MPs and Civil Servants enter that route through internships - again excluding all but those in the top 10% of incomes (ie almost all state school kids)

happygardening they've only very recently moved over to offering 100% bursaries Fair enough, early days yet then :-)

Yes but unfortunately public schools like Eton are exactly what a lot of people think about when you mention private education. They assume, 'Old school tie' and social networking for top jobs in government and The City. The vast majority of independent day schools are very far removed for this. There is also the assumption that if your child is not at one of old public schools then there is no point in paying as your child must be receiving a mediocre education. The country is full of large happy vibrant thriving independent day schools with excellent teaching and facilities.

I hate this assumption that fee paying parents are stupid and blind to the qualities of schools. That we just pay for the sake of it and are to be laughed at as there's some in joke that we are paying for nothing.

I'm not saying the system is fair. I know I'm paying for stuff that other kids around the country simply have no hope of accessing. But it's not necessarily a state vs private thing. The kids locally who attend state schools are in no way disadvantaged or even less advantaged than my kids. Their parents have just chosen to pay for things differently through catchment and extra curricular stuff.

I've said it on here time and again but the real problem and the real unfairness is within the state sector. Morally, it's actually far worse that two children in receipt of a state education in different parts of the country can be receiving such a vastly different experience.

Unequal access to employment :
www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/imperial-pulls-plug-on-internship-auction/2003883.article
auction.westminster.org.uk/lots/fantastic-one-week-internship-at-crossbridge-capital-llp
www.theguardian.com/education/2013/may/22/nick-clegg-westminster-school-internships-auction

Before anybody wishes for more equality, they should question the practices of the schools they send their own children to.

Talkinpeace, I do know of a child from a massively deprived background who received a 100%+ bursary from a top public school. This was 15yrs ago but it covered not only fees but also uniform, trips and token pocket money. I know this to be 100% true because I was teaching in the school that sent him. I'm not sure if it's something that's advertised but certainly in this one school it was available. He was an exceptionally bright and lovely child.

NancyJones
Assume the school was not Christ's Hospital of course as they have always dished out bursaries.
Did he then go on to excel in life or did his lack of connections put him back at square one later in life?

The other thing that I have noticed when comparing the local comprehensives and the private school is that the comprehensives seem overly keen on children doing skiing trips, trips to China, trips to Iceland etc. The private school has trips to the local RHS gardens.

This did suprise me. It would appear that the comprehensive is trying to keep up with the Jones', whilst massively misunderstanding the Jones' lifestyle...

Quillpen
DH goes to lots of schools - they pay him.
Private schools are notoriously tight on what they are willing to pay and late at paying
State schools assume the kids won't have access to stuff outside school so aim to provide it.

Many private schools know that after the parents have paid the fees, coughing up £3k for the A level trip to the Gambia is rather out of the question. State schools in well heeled areas know that the parents have set aside cash for exactly such things.

"This did suprise me. It would appear that the comprehensive is trying to keep up with the Jones', whilst massively misunderstanding the Jones' lifestyle..."

An interesting interpretation. You might find that the comprehensive schools have less "dramatic" trips as part of the school day which you don't hear about, but organise holiday type trips because many of their children don't have the opportunities outside school that their privately educated peers do. That is certainly the case at ds's school.

happygardening, I didn't say that, I said that even if your school is needs-blind, in practice most of the children there are very wealthy. The 100% bursary kids, no,

Talkinpeace, no but if someone had to name 5 British public schools, this school would be on almost every list.

I think Quillpen's experience re trips is common at comps in very affluent areas. In fact, the local primary that we didn't use had a y5/y6 skiing trip at one point. Of course a large proportion of the kids there skied most winters.

MumTrying
You can find out a bit more about the bursaries in Eton's Accounts.

apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/DocumentList.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1139086&SubsidiaryNumber=0&DocType=AccountList

Many of the private schools are charities and their accounts are publicly available. (I checked out the DC's prep school before signing anything to make sure they were financially sound).

"Many private schools know that after the parents have paid the fees, coughing up £3k for the A level trip to the Gambia is rather out of the question."

Really? I think that very much depends whereabouts in the country you are talking about.

For instance, Hampton School this half-term is sending the following trips:

Berlin German £430 4 days
Madrid Spanish £575 8 days
Jordan Cultural Trip £1700 10 days
Ipswich Rugby £100 3 days
Europe Golf £1200 6 days
Florence & Venice History £400 5 days
Cordoba Work Experience £650 7 days
Uganda Geography £1500 10 days
Sorrento Geography £520 4 days
Malvern College Music £350 4 days
Majorca Tennis £900 7 days
Lake District DofE £140 5 days
Temple-Sur-Lot Rowing £590 16 (!) days

In total about 400 boys going on trips this half term alone.

Chazs
Eton's accounts are lovely (I bet the Deloitte partner is an OE)
but say absolutely NOTHING about whether the bursaries are actually being used to widen participation, or just to subsidise the fees for those grandchildren of OEs who earn less now relative to the fees.

"THE KYNGE'S COLLEGE OF OUR LADYE OF ETON BESYDE WINDESORE"

If I point out that they can't spell, how badly will I be flamed ......

Talkin
I was thinking of the 2nd and 3rd para on p7 on widening access. I agree there isn't a breakdown of bursaries.

BTW I have no particular interest either way as we are looking at day schools for Senior school (DS1 is Yr7) and won't get a bursary.

It partly to point out that there is more information out there than people realise. I suspect you could ring up Eton and ask the Admissions Access Advisor the split of bursaries - you may get a fudged answer but I doubt they would be surprised at you asking.

MarriedDad
You have to be really really rich to afford all those extraneous "Es" just for decorative purposes.

I am now rethinking - given that spelling Eton may be the perfect place for my dyslexic DS

Sorry, Talkinpeace, the boy in question went on to Oxford to do History. I then moved away so I'm unsure what he did next. I'm sure he did very well for himself because despite his difficult background and with parents virtually living hand to mouth, he was a happy and well adjusted kid. His parents knew how to parent but had fuck all resources to help them and no way to avoid the very low achieving secondary and the local gang culture. Sending him away to school was very selfless of his mother I always thought as it seemed to totally go agonist the grain for her. I didn't have kids then so it didn't properly resonate with me what a big decision it was for her.

When think about it now though, I wonder about the younger brother and sister. Also both bright, well mannered kids but not exceptionally bright like their older sibling so no way of avoiding what he managed to avoid. Their family outcome would no doubt make an interesting documentary for ch4.

MarriedDad, you don't have the evidence for why we are all better off that some people in our society are well educated, even if we ourselves are not? How about Adam Smith, "Wealth of Nations," or if you like something more current, John Kay's, "The Truth About Markets."

I know most people don't find economics all that diverting, so I'll give a little story as an example:

I am a lucky child, leading a charmed life. I have a happy home with supportive parents and get a good solid education. I trot off into the workforce and land a lovely corporate job with pension benefits, car etc. It's my job to organise a factory in the UK's production. It's a global company and there are other factories competing internally. There is a lot of competition and politics involved. It takes some serious skill to keep the lion's share of the production for Europe here in the UK rather than at another plant in France. I work my socks off to hold the line and keep the activity at "my factory." I couldn't do it without all the hard knowledge, education and social skills that have been nurtured in me.

Meanwhile, there are workers on the production floor some of whom might have more latent potential than I do. It's not fair. For whatever reason, they did not reach their potential. My having a good education is not the cause of their "demise." My having a good education has kept them in reasonably good and stable employment. Yes, them being properly educated in the first place would have been the best outcome, but me being well educated has done them no harm. It has helped them.

We are a team in Britain. I want as many strong players on my team as possible. The problem is NEVER that someone else's child has had a good education. It can only be that some children aren't getting a good education themselves. If we descend into bickering among ourselves, and have low horizons thinking that the England or Britain is the whole world, and it is really just a matter of relative rank within Britain; we will watch the rest of the world eat our lunch for us.

I know a couple of boys in DS's year at London Indy who receive bursaries. Both come from very naice middle class homes. One has 3 siblings and all seem to be on some form of discounted school place and the other would not have the family income to pay school fees as the main breadwinner has opted for a job they enjoy rather than pays well. They live in an are of outstanding primaries and both got places at the local "superselective" boys grammar but chose to take the bursary at the Indy instead. I am not sure what the bursaries are saving them from or what opportunities it is opening up for them that wouldn't be available otherwise.
What I do know is that there are inner city London schools who could do an awful lot with that £40K a year or any part thereof.

Agree, mustchooseasecondary!
That's why I firmly believe the biggest issue is the huge difference between good state schools and poorly performing ones. Paying for extras on top is not the issue. Affluent parents will ensure their children get these either in school time or through extra curricular stuff outside school. Education in the broad sense is hugely enriched for all these children. The fact that every child in the country is not receiving a decent standard is the issue.

Life is not fair. Where do you draw the line? Let's live in a cardboard box.