First post: what is wrong with considering private schools?

[dietcokeisgreat]

Dear all,

I just starting looking at mumsnet last week and joined today. Some of my work colleagues talk about it and i am thinking about options for education for my son, who is just 3 and thought i would take a look. Well, i just starting the thinking, so it is early days.
We could pay for school, or maybe not, we don't know yet. He is our first child, we are having problems getting pregnant again, so unsure if there will be more yet.

I was surprised at some really negative comments on lots of threads towards people posting for advice/ whatever about private schools. Why are they doing that? What is wrong with people thinking about different options? Or asking about a school they know that is private? Twice i read something 'well i can't pay for school' as a response. For me, its no different to whether or not people have cash for other stuff. I can't afford to live in the smarter part of town, or pay for a boarding school but that doesn't mean no one should be allowed too!

Just wondering...don't want to post something that will enrage others or be and be upset by responses ....

Thank you.

Are you trying aversion therapy on me?

This is better therapy than my posts could ever provide.

twitter.com/Highgatemums

It is unfair.
Completely unfair.

And the more I see of both sectors, the more I see how unfair it is.

However, as a parent there is very little one can do (perhaps nothing) to change the way our society is structured and what it values.

Nor can we change the fact that economically the UK is getting ever more polarised and many of our young people are going to end up at the South Pole.

So we do what we can with what we have at our disposal.

mummy as everyone knows I'm no Eton fan but I have to hand it to them they are really trying to broaden their access 20% of the school are on bursaries 70 on 100% bursaries and they take children from a whole variety of prep schools probably a wider variety than most of the others. In fairness to all schools like Eton starting at yr 9 will have a significant impact on the intake, most will come from traditional preps as only a few want to move their DC at yr 6 then again at yr 8.

There are "ordinary" and "bog standard" schools in both state and private sectors. There are super-selective schools in both too, and the outcomes are broadly equivalent. The difference, often, is that the average child in the ordinary private sector school is motivated by the visible sacrifices made by the family in order to ensure that lessons are not disrupted by the 10-15% in the state who do not value education. Some parents are trying to avoid bullying or encourage professional performing skills; others prefer not having to mix with the staff. In an ideal world, all teachers would be enthusiastic about their subjects and skilled pedagogues; in real life, there are good and atrocious in both sectors... The good, the bad, and the ugly!

I've seen this as a teacher, and as a parent with a child who has been at both private and state schools. And it's true worldwide, perhaps except in the third world where education is a privilege and an escape from grinding poverty. In such countries (I am thinking of Sri Lanka and most of Africa) it has to be paid for by parents or sponsors. In international schools in the Middle East (where I have close family, professionally involved) the most disruptive students are (normally) the children of the obscenely rich distant relatives of the ruling dynasty. The princes go to British public schools but the playboys with Ferraris can be as thuggish and difficult in a classroom as any lippy
too-cool-for-school little madam!

Of course it would be wonderful to offer every child the education that would perfectly develop his or her abilities and potential. We should acknowledge that it would not be the same education for every child. It is the parent's responsibility to do their best, according to their lights. Most of us with some degree of choice agonise over the decision but many don't have the luxury of choice. Sorry if this is motherhood and apple pie!

Yes if you are very bright you might get to Eton from my local state primary. But no boys have gone from my local two Preps for several years, so I might be looking elsewhere if that was my intended destination.

trice - I pay more than 25k pa to send my dcs to a private school. This is largely because I was horribly bullied at my own comp for being posh. It really damaged me. All the other posh kids in my area went private it seemed. I feel that my lovely lefty parents sacrificed my education on the altar of their principles. They didn't change the world and I had a miserable time.

trice - My dcs speak "posh", they don't swear, they love school and are excited about learning. They are proper little teachers pets, just as I was. They would be eaten alive at the local state school IMO. I'm not prepared to risk it.

trice My dcs speak "posh" having bi-lingual children is a big bonus I imagine.

trice - They are proper little teachers pets, just as I was yet you were bullied for being posh?

Perhaps if you had planned ahead and saved £25k pa in the years preceding secondary school you could have bought a house that would have placed your DC in a local comp. where they would not have been the only "posh" in the village. This is a tongue in cheek comment BTW but the message I get from your post is that you don't get "posh" children in state secondaries.

mummytime But I think everyone should look at their local State schools first. I'm inclined to say that they should do what sits best with them. However, if they don't bother looking at all, or at least the majority, of the local alternatives, they shouldn't then try to insist that they chose the school that was best for their DC or that it was the only one that could meet their needs.

Amused that Eton is broadening its intake by looking at a whole variety of prep schools.........

TheWordFacory -spot on.

I "don't believe" in private education, I am morally against it. I wish it would be banned. However, it exists and I have to live with that world.

The situation is so bad and divided where I live that parents who care will do anything not to send their child to the local comprehensive (there are a LOT of Catholics round here... Apparently) which means the local comp is left with a select group of children. I went to the school, I know what it is like and I had a hell of a bad time there and so would do anything so my children don't go there.

Which leaves a "choice" of sacrificing a lot and scrimping and saving for years to pay for one of the private schools, moving into a catchment area for the good school- the "posh estate" (which is actually horrible and costs a lot to live there and the school isn't really that good), or converting to Catholiscm. Personally, I find paying for my children's schooling less morally reprehensible than moving to a posh area and much less morally reprehensible that changing my whole belief system (or worse pretending to).

It's all very well having morals, but my children aren't being sacrificed on that altar.

Halkuyt you clearly can't read. Eton is broadening it's access by offering more and more bursaries. If 70 are on 100% bursaries then I think even you have to admit that these are not children from wealthy privileged homes. I don't know what schools they went to before starting at Eton but it's a fair guess that some have come from that state sector and some from preps but those from preps who require this level of financial support to attend Eton were very unlikely to be paying the sort of fees their preps charge so must either have be on scholarships that offer significant financial support (increasingly hard to find) or a substantial bursary. Most schools only offer bursaries to those on low wages and expect significant sacrifices by the parents. Therefore it is fair to say that Eton is attempting to broaden it's intake. There will always be parents with low incomes and bright children at state schools who don't wish to move their DC's twice in two years but the message would appear to be those that do and like what Eton offers they should seriously think about applying because significant financial help is available.

Quill, you say "I went to the school, I know what it is like and I had a hell of a bad time there and so would do anything so my children don't go there." Has it not changed at all since you went there?

Eton broadening its intake is to benefit Eton above all else. They have zero impact on access to high-quality education for the average child in this country, and you've got statistically no chance from a state primary, but a good chance from the right prep school. Boarding schools in this country are increasingly becoming crammers for Chinese kids, so for places like Eton remaining relevant and at the top of the pyramid by taking in bright state school pupils is definitely to their advantage.

happygardening If 70 are on 100% bursaries then I think even you have to admit that these are not children from wealthy privileged homes. 70 out of how many happy? How has this changed over the last 5 years? How many of those 100% bursaries are going to children who are already in the school but have subsequently found, due to unforeseen circumstances, can no longer pay? Genuine questions as I know nothing about Eton.

Eton has 1300 boys.

First off, it is your choice where and how you educate your child. Do not worry about what other people think, whether in RL or on here.

However, assuming you have the finances to consider both options, do not assume that private=better.

A brief synopsis of our experiences:

DS1 - private from yr R-6,wanted to try for 11+, failed, offered place at failing secondary school, went private yr 7-11. Moved to state grammar for yr 12-13, and achieved far far better results than his friends (of a similar ability) in the private school.

DD - private from y R-6. Severe learning difficulties never identified. grammar from yr 7-9 told she was just lazy and a troublemaker. LDs identified - at a specialist private school and flourishing.

(We are not wealthy, any fees funded by widow's pension/grandparents).

As you can see, very much pros and cons from our perspective. I believe the private junior school didn't stretch either child, and failed in identifying significant learning difficulties. I believe DS achieved better A level results at the state school (albeit a grammar). However the specialist provision DD is now receiving is excellent.

DS3 & 4 are state educated and will remain so.

There are no easy answers, but I just wanted to share our experience and to urge you to exercise caution.

There was a radio 4 interview with the Eton headmaster as part of the 'Educators' series recently and it was really interesting (and the sole source of my knowledge about the school) - he seemed very passionate about moving to a 'needs-blind' admissions system and the school being able to offer assistance to all who made the cut as necessary. He was quite realistic that this would not be achievable in the short term but seemed very committed to it in the longer term (although I suppose he would say that on the radio!)

The American equivalents of Eton are needs-blind, because in the US it's normal to give money to your old school, so they have billions.

That doesn't make them classless places, of course most people there are still fabulously wealthy, because to be in a position to apply to such a school you will likely have been financially hugely privileged from birth.

mum if you are already at the school and due to unforeseen circumstances apply for a bursary and are offered 100% you are unlikely to have fallen on hard times and be down to your last 300 million. I'm pretty sure 100% bursaries are not dished to all and sundry.
Eton by the way is not the only one with this vision. SPS has had it for a long time although my DH thinks they're slightly rowing back from it since the new head arrived although he could be wrong, and Win Coll are also hoping to have a completely "needs blind" admissions system by I think 2020. They currently have 15% of the school on bursaries and there are others but few are able to afford in the numbers and with the same generosity that these three are.

Tansie, absolutely I sent my DCs to the prep for the sport, drama, music and all the other extras. Absolutely! Why is that not a credible reason? My local primary at the time was one of the highest achieving in the country. Most children lived in houses which are probably now worth 750k+. They had exceptionally high levels of L5s at the end of Y6. So I certainly wasn't paying to give my children any sort of academic advantage. Nor any old school type of network at they went to a large independent day school. I paid for all. The extra stuff that my neighbours who went state paid for on top after school and at weekends. So neighbours would be off to ballet and rugby and horse riding at weekends. All kids could swim at 3 after private lessons. They were all learning one or two instruments one night after school. They did stuff like stagecoach at the weekends too or after school. Mine did rugby, ballet, climbing club, football, hockey, swimming, drama, lamda and piano at school. It was a less stressful life than many friends had, I must say.

I think Manchester Grammar was needs blind. Not sure if that is still the case. Oh and, Aga, Withington Girls in Manchester is one of the top performing girls schools in the country and relatively cheap compared to here in the SE. Excellent value for money.

Aga if you qualify for 100% bursary I very very much doubt you've "been financially hugely privileged from birth". All incomes, saving, assets etc are very carefully scrutinised yearly.

happygardening mum if you are already at the school and due to unforeseen circumstances apply for a bursary and are offered 100% you are unlikely to have fallen on hard times and be down to your last 300 million. I'm pretty sure 100% bursaries are not dished to all and sundry. sorry, I'm not suggesting that existing students are less entitled to the 100% bursary. However, if existing students are among those getting 100% bursary, it does not suggest that the 100% bursaries are actually widening the access does it? To make this claim there would need to be a trend that suggests an increase in 100% burseries being awarded on initial entry into the school. Perhaps someone has figures to demonstrate that this is the case?

I think you're right Nancy Manchester Grammar is needs blind. But it is the big name boarding schools who are often most associated in the minds of many with privilege/the old boys network and cabinet minister etc who perhaps need to genuinely broaden their access and become needs blind, and SPS which has significant day fees. 35k pa in school fees is outside of the reach of all but the seriously wealthy

mum I think you need to read Eton's website 100% bursaries are available to new applicant as well as existing pupils.

Win Coll by the way have plans to raise millions I think 20 million to become needs blind to new and existing pupils.