First post: what is wrong with considering private schools?

[dietcokeisgreat]

Dear all,

I just starting looking at mumsnet last week and joined today. Some of my work colleagues talk about it and i am thinking about options for education for my son, who is just 3 and thought i would take a look. Well, i just starting the thinking, so it is early days.
We could pay for school, or maybe not, we don't know yet. He is our first child, we are having problems getting pregnant again, so unsure if there will be more yet.

I was surprised at some really negative comments on lots of threads towards people posting for advice/ whatever about private schools. Why are they doing that? What is wrong with people thinking about different options? Or asking about a school they know that is private? Twice i read something 'well i can't pay for school' as a response. For me, its no different to whether or not people have cash for other stuff. I can't afford to live in the smarter part of town, or pay for a boarding school but that doesn't mean no one should be allowed too!

Just wondering...don't want to post something that will enrage others or be and be upset by responses ....

Thank you.

at private schools offering "an officer training cadet arm of the armed forces" and state schools offering " a non-officer based activity led by the armed forces"

Says it all, really,doesn't it?

Actually, I didn't realise that state schools do cadets at all- I've never heard of it, thankfully, out of the private sector. Although I know many kids who are cadets outside school.

Lots of state schools do DofE, though. And some even get Gold............

sorryforher the staff do have self contained accommodation but all including teaching staff eat in the houses especially at lunch time, there is no communal dinning hall. The HM's wife and children also frequently eat their meals in the house dinning hall. The teaching staff who aren't HM's all live in accommodation which belongs to the school and like the boarding houses are situated in a few roads which are sort of around the edge of the school main grounds.
As far as I understand the HM's have a very small teaching commitment because their job is so enormous for example they interview and select boys for the school and their house.
It's a huge commitment our HM frequently emails house newsletters etc at 2-3 am. It's a complete way of life. I have obviously never asked our HM but he very much seems to enjoy his job. I have absolutely no doubt that my DS's HM really cares about him, and all the other boys. It must be a tough job at times especially with 60 highly articulate, highly intelligent boys, many who are quirky natural non conformists who enjoy and are in fact positively encouraged to question/challenge everything! As a I said rather him than me.

Absolutely! Kids come out of State schools with Grade 8 in classical musical instruments, Gold DofE, having run a Young Enterprize Company and having represented the County at a variety of Sports. It certainly happens.

And yes, it is a shame that the organisation offering effectively officer training skills is only in independent schools. This is historic, I assume. Much of the extra curricular provision,especially where a number of schools are involved is historic.
I guess that the higher teacher-pupil ratios in independent schools (due to fee paying) is the key thing that allows staff to offer the wider range of activities to a larger number of pupils. There will be staff who teach a quarter timetable load, because the rest of the time they organise DofE or co-ordinate matches. There may also be support staff employed to support extra curricular activities, such as someone in charge of lighting,props etc for drama, someone to deal with perepetetic music lessons, wardrobe mistress of drama productions, rugby coach, golf professional.

I have met FAB people who have made the most of state school opportunities and also got involved in lots of thigs outside school too, showing real initiative. It has not all been laid on a plate for them, as it has been for the kids in some independent schools, who can reel of their wider achievements, which have come easily to them.
However, given your average teenager, who is often not a self-starter, I think those in independent schools TYPICALLY will have been involved in to wider range of extra curricular stuff by the time they leave school...because they have been pushed to be involved.

Grades achieved are very important, but in terms of gaining confidence, social skills, team work, leadership etc these extra curricular activities can give people the edge and perhaps are what makes some difference later in life.

It's not fair. I agree.

Actually, quite a few of the grammar schools in Kent (and elsewhere) have CCF (the officer kind) - Maidstone, Dover, Judd, Skinners and Tunbridge Wells Grammar for Girls'!

Yes, now you mention it, I have heard of them in Grammar Schools too, especially the boys schools.

Presumably whatever happens in grammar schools is targeted at the NCO class........that's how it used to be after all. Officers from private, NCOs from grammar schools and Other Ranks from secondary modern.

I think CCF in Grammar is the same as in Independent.
I guess the armed forces are very hierarchical and traditional. They originally got their officers from independent schools. Am sure Grammars are considered 'worthy' too.
Of course many people from Comps go onto become officers and get onto officer training too. It is just that those schools are not targeted as being the traditional recruiting grounds. Again,partly historic. Guess the armed forces cannot afford a presence in all schools.
Just shows how long lasting these things are thought!
When Grammars were established post WW2 they modelled themselves on independent schools....prefects, CCF, exams etc.

Of course you'll find both CCF and a rifle range at the state school, Wellington Academy but that's probably only due to its sponsorship by Well Coll. And considering they are spitting distance from Sandhurst I expect theirs to be pretty decent even if Well Coll isn't somewhere I'd ever want to send my kids.

OP, we are considering private primary for our DD - she's one year younger than your DC. We are in outer London and the schools are completely full - we are in a 'black hole' where on paper at least, there is no school DD would have got into for the last 3 years. The admissions code says we can 'express a preference' for 9 (!) schools but that we must choose at least one DD will definitely get into on distance - but there isn't one! Of course, the local authority have to find her somewhere and I'm sure they would eventually, but in the meantime there is stress of wondering what will happen/should we move house/not being able to sort childcare due to not knowing location of school etc etc. So for us private would be to reduce that stress, plus if later on we want DD to do 11+, they will prepare her. Also, my research so far has suggested wrap around & holiday clubs are provided as a given at private primaries (at cost) -- this may not be an issue for you of course, but it certainly is for us as we have long commutes...to our jobs in education! We would be quite happy with any of the state primaries round here educationally (friends have no complaints) but there are so few places and the population is growing exponentially. Also, having done the numbers, the cost difference between day nursery and private primary is not very much, so if you've been paying for one, you know you can budget for it. Finally, a side benefit of paying is that we can pick a school close to our house/on our commutes, whereas we could be offered a state one a long way away.

We have lived within 5 mins walk of an excellent community primary for 12 years, and now we need it, it is essentially closed to us. It is annoying to have to pay for what friends and neighbours have received for free, but we are extremely lucky to have a choice at all.

DH and I were both educated entirely in the state sector but neither set of parents had any problems getting us into reasonable schools. If they had, both families had a SAHM so no-one would have been risking their job due to uncertainty or an inconvenient journey. Times have changed.

I haven't answered your question. In my opinion, nothing, if it's the best choice for your DC given the needs of everyone in the family (I can understand, for instance, why some couples in pressured jobs choose weekly boarding rather than a patchwork of childcare and that people with DC with SEN would want to pay for more support if they can). You can argue it would be morally better if everyone were educated together but privilege would find a way. You can argue that given the population pressures in London and the SE, that the existence of the private sector reduces the demand on state places a small amount and that it may be better if people who can pay, do pay, to free up some places. Having an extra £10-£30k p.a. to spend on conspicuous consumption (if rich all went state) might lead to more divisive effects than separate sectors.

I suppose I don't see how we could possibly live in a market economy but have no alternative to state provision in something as important as education. That doesn't make it morally right, but it does make it impossible to stop in practical terms.

Phiney, just bear in mind,that whilst you maybe able to afford the fees now, as similar to nursery fees, there are usually leaps in fees between reception and Year 1 and into Year3 too, and in some schools even more leaps. And most seriously of concern into the longer term, is that fees increase faster than inflation....typically 4% to 5% at the moment! but in the last 10 years,often at a rate if closer to 10%, so do your forecasting ahead.

Even just looking at Secondary a couple of years ago (thinking ahead) I could see that in the space of 8 years,the fees were likely to double! Scary!

Wellington Academy is bound to have a CCF and shooting range it's in Tidworth it's a garrison town.

ChocolateW thank you for pointing out that D of E is different from CCF, I might have not realised . Actually as pointed out some state schools offer the same set up as independent schools with no difference in ranks / officer training or other. Also D of E registration, expeditions can be offered as part of the CCF package. As I am sure Hakluyt will know, D of E, especially gold costs money and this with outdoor education generally can be heavily subsided by CCF in state schools.

Eton are , among other things, offering participation in their CCF to the academy they are sponsoring.

Kids who excel from either school will be promoted to whatever ranks they can achieve.

Happygardening, yes, I'm sure that is one of the reasons it was chosen by Wellington College. I know under AS, Well Coll has tried to move away from its image of educating wealthy but less academic boys to pop up the road to Sandhurst but I'm not sure it's reputation is any better these days.
Has he retired this year? Can't be bothered to google. I know lots of people think he's the bees knees but I didn't take to him when I visited.

I don't care for AS but he is retiring on account of his wife's illness.

I don't know if it's just me but I'm not particularly interested in the existence either CCF or D of E at a school state or independent.

"I don't know if it's just me but I'm not particularly interested in the existence either CCF or D of E at a school state or independent."

I am when they are prayed in aid (love that expression!) in favour of one sector or another. And you must admit, the rank thing was funny!

It reminded me of the beginning of Brideshead Revisited when Charles was mooning over Brideshead and despising his rather common ADC who insisted on saying (I think) "Righty-ho" or something like that.

HG I am for any organisation that subsides access for activities in schools for children whose families could n't afford them. For some children these opportunities can be incredibly important experiences. What is paramount is having the choice rather than restricted to economic criteria.

CCF doesn't rock my boat but I can see the benefits; self-discipline, leadership, adventure etc. I doubt ds1 or ds2 will want to join the CCF when they're old enough but I will encourage them to try D of E. So what if it doesn't help with their UCAS applications? A little taste of adventure and volunteering might inspire them to do something useful with their lives in between pension fund management or banking. Some famous ex CCF/D of E; Sir Ranulph Fiennes, James Cracknell, Eddie Izzard, David Walliams, Prince Harry, Ben Fogle and Dame Kelly Holmes.

Just read that the gov. want to divert CCF funding away from independent schools and set up an extra 100 contingents in state funded schools instead.

DDS1 joined our local ACT (RAF CCF) and did it for about three years he had a great time and it cost peanuts to be a member. Most of it was subsidised by the RAF/MOD a whole weeks trip away cost nothing. Like scouts etc it wasn't done through school. We have a lot round here I guess it's because we've got quite a few RAF bases in this region. Whilst with them he did D of E.

Good for him! I guess your DS2 would have to join through his school though (if so inclined) as he boards during term time. I'm sure there must be some adventurous types at Win College.

There are army, navy and air cadets in our town. And various sorts of scouts/guides. And I think most of them do DofE. None of them ar connected to the schools, though. I am pleased about that, because I am wary of covert Service recruitment in disadvantaged areas. But that's another thread.....

I was interested in the Police cadets on "Educating th East End". Never heard of that before -does anyone's school run them?

They do CCF for 2 1/2 terms then are free to opt out and then they have to do a community service instead of which there seems to be a wide variety of options. Perhaps unsurprisingly most seem to opt out of CCF.