Why didn't your child apply to Oxford or Cambridge?

[ZeroSomeGameThingy]

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/may/27/oxbridge-state-school-numbers-falling

Given that most people who apply will not get in - there's no shame in an unsuccessful application. So what are the real reasons for this apparent reluctance?

If your worthwhile degree from a respected university doesn't generate decent rewards you'll never have to pay the loans back anyway

That is true, but you will end up paying a lot more than people who earn twice as much due to the interest payments.

To minimize the cost you either have to keep to below the minimum income or earn a substantial amount. People earning average graduate salaries will be paying for the full term, and still never pay it back.

Which is why Student loans should be partly underwritten by Universities : so that THEY rather than just general taxpayers
suffer some of the pain from the 48% of current student debt that is not recoverable
(not my idea BTW - common discussion in the FT, Economist and WSJ)

Just to throw in a random point, I actually think that bright kids from backgrounds and schools with limited aspiration are sometimes more likely to apply to Oxbridge, or to think about it, than equivalently bright kids from more supportive backgrounds. Simply because they've heard of it and know it sees itself as / is seen as the best and equate that with themselves being by far the best at their school.

What they don't have is the wider awareness of the university system, so may not be thinking so strategically about where is best for them, or preparing effectively, being realistic, or even choosing the right A-levels.

A friend comes to mind. I went to a large comprehensive which while mixed had a large proportion of very motivated, middle class children, including many offspring of lecturers from another prestigious university. Friend went to a comp in an area of low education and aspiration. Her GCSE results were the best her school had seen for years but nothing special at my school (though given the standard of teaching, direct comparison doesn't stand up). She therefore arrived full of confidence that she was something special and should apply to Oxbridge.

In fact she didn't apply, having been somewhat put off by the head of sixth form's spiel about how you had to want to go there, specifically, more than anything, in order to be able to see through the entrance exam preparation and perhaps the realisation that there were plenty of other bright people around - and some off-puttingly, overbearingly confident ones - beyond the confines of her village.

I think, and have seen with other people, that sometimes, the student like this, who finds the right supportive teacher, will go for Oxbridge in a relatively fearless way.

I'm concerned about the repayments when you have dropped out with no degree having been unable to survive on the loan. Why do you think I know so much about this? Why do you think I am in a position now where my family is not well off enough to contribute to our children's university expenses?

I know what is at stake. I was the loser. I had 3 jobs AND busked regukarly before I finally through in the towel, lonely and friendless due the lack of entertainment funds and spending all hours working. I worked bloody hard to make it work. I am a grafter and a creative thinker but I still coukdn't perform magic. The costs are greater now and funds are even less. My children won't be the only ones doing things differently.
For determined innovators there are better paths and
opportunity in non-conformity. My DB had a similar experience though after seeing what happened to me remained at home. He was dx with kidney failure and be and to ill. He got a transplant eventually but coukdn't borrow money again to do a different course (being dx with terminal illness radically changes your priorities) in order to set himself up in a career that woukd accommodate dialysis and regular hospital appointments. He now runs several businesses and travels the world in between kidney failings.

Slightly off topic but when my DS was in Year 8 he went on a Murder in the Cloisters weekend at Oxford Uni. This was part of a widening access scheme and was open to state school students. He loved it and I imagine that it would have dispelled any myths that Oxford wasn't for the likes of him. It must be hard to target the right pupils to go on the trip though - only a couple from his school were invited so many missed the opportunity.

Many universities have "elite" clubs one way or another. Maybe not quite so unappealing as the Bullingdon but elite nonetheless because they are so expensive. I know of RG universities with wine-tasting societies which drink £200 wines, with flying clubs, with "gourmet" societies which meet in Michelin restaurants, with fashion societies which visit Milan fashion week (staying in 5* hotels) etc. Inevitably they are generally populated by privately-educated kids.

I do feel sorry for Oxford that the Bullingdon gets so much exposure.

I didn't apply to Oxbridge - my sister did (and got in). She is not cleverer than me (I think she probably is a bit less clever actually but she has more of a killer-competitive streak than I do). She didn't enjoy it all that much and went elsewhere (Paris and London) like a shot to do her Masters and PhD. I'm not sure that people who really wanted to go to Oxbridge and did, and got in and enjoyed it, always appreciate that some people (a) don't want to go there or (b) don't like it much when they are there. And I come from a family where loads of people have been to Oxbridge so it isn't a fear/widening access issue. In my case (and also my sister's) it was undoubtedly more the ivory-tower cloisters thing that bothered us.

Lottie One of the issues that the mentoring charities face is that often the pupils with aspirations have very narrow goals eg Oxbridge, Medicine because they are paths they have heard are best and/or most valued in their culture etc. They spend a lot of time sharing the cultural capital that opens up minds to the different options there are depending on your talents. There is more to Science than medicine and courses that are less competitive to access. That for students with other talents STEM subjects are not the only route to a business career etc etc (and informed mentors from business provide evidence of that before anyone takes issue)

I visited one City RG with one of DDs friends, whose mother came to work here from another country and has had a very successful business career with one of the large management Consultancy companies. She openly admitted to having had the preconception that Oxbridge and perhaps the London unis, Durham, Bristol were the only places worth studying at (and presumably recruiting from completely overturned, for what her DD wanted to study Birmingham, Leeds, Nottingham all offered better courses, better employment prospects etc. She had been totally wrong to put pressure on her daughter to stick to the names she held in esteem.

Dd1 is only 14 but already her school are talking about preparing her for Oxbridge. She knows that she will need to take out the full amount of student loans and work/save during sixth form and holidays from uni. Her state school usually send 5-10 of their top students to Oxbridge each year. Dd1 is a bit wary of Oxbridge because she has the idea that it isn't for people like her, and actually she does lack a bit of confidence and may not put herself in her best light in an interview situation, we're working on that.

It may be that she ends up not applying for Oxbridge and aiming for somewhere different, but that would probably be due to her specific subject and the courses offered (she hasn't yet decided on her subject, she's only 14, but something sciency). We'll keep an open mind when we get to that stage.

There are 6 schools with 6th forms locally, in the past 5 years, dd1's school has sent 5-10 students to Oxbridge each year, the school I teach in has sent 5-10 students to Oxbridge each year, one other has sent a similar number but I'm not sure of the exact amounts, the other 3 haven't sent any. I'm not sure whether that's because the brightest pupils have parents who have avoided those schools (with good reason, they're in special measures), or whether it's to do with the teaching not being good enough to get the top grades (could be) or the aspirations and careers guidance given at those schools (again, it's a possibility).

Wow, my head is spinning after reading this thread.

My DD is in year 10 and has recently decided she wants to go to a different school for As and A level and wants to go to Oxbridge open days.

Right. She is at a super selective state grammar school, but wants to go somewhere else to do Science and Maths A Level. I have no idea where she should go (we're in SE London) or if Oxbridge is even the right choice for her subject (Sciences, Biochemistry, Genetics).

While I'm happy she has finally got an idea about her future, I'm a bit unsure about the Oxbridge idea. There are a few unis in London who do the courses she's interested in (the career person at her school told me : Queen Marys, Imperial? UCL) and she could live at home. We have had the loft extended to give our teens their own floor plus bathroom.

DH and I went to uni in Germany and haven't really got much of a clue about universities in the uk.

Does anyone know which schools in London have a good Sixth Form for Sciences? We cannot afford private school fees, she would have to get a scholarship. She's predicted all A*.

Pigeons I can see that. I imagine that for some, fearlessly 'flying blind' pays off and they get in somewhere prestigious that suits them, without making some of the comparisons the better informed might but for others, wider knowledge is power.

Well, it never occurred to me that DS was an Oxbridge candidate, but luckily his (comprehensive) school picked up on it and encouraged him to apply. He's now at Oxford having an absolute blast :) No snobs in sight, maybe at Christchurch, but DS hasn't come across any snobs at his college.

And his rent is half what some of his mates at the Londons, Bristol, St Andy's pay. Also we were within bursary level at Oxford - we wouldn't have been, anywhere else (except Cambridge).

oh, and from upthread

Oxbridge is now seen as the fallback 'insurance' choice for those without the extra spark to have US university offers, so the brightest are opting for those. ha ha ha...no.

tasting the stars 'Judging the students on the few that you meet on an open day, would you do that to any other university?" In DD's case she attended a Master Class at Cambridge, so it was a full day, and she also attended a separate large Oxbridge event held for multiple colleges, rather than an Open Day - so the students who presented were presumably selected as best representing the ethos of their universities.

I was keen for her to apply and did point out that there would be a huge variety of different types of people there - but at 17 years old, she was quite definite about not applying to either, and also refused to go back for the Open Days - her decision. I do think part of it was her conviction that she wouldn't get in anyway, but actually she should have stood a reasonable chance.

DD2 is booked in for the Open Days, and is keen, but the recent report here in the Times is pretty shocking, and just reinforces the stereotypes that exist - www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/education/article4092551.ece

"More than half of Cambridge students have been subjected to sexual harassment, a survey has suggested. A fifth of Cambridge students said that they felt unsafe in the evenings and one in ten had been targeted by a stalker, it found.

and

One woman student told the survey: “I was pulled into a group of young men in a club (looked like a drinking society from the ties) and surrounded so I couldn’t get out, I was told that if I ‘danced well’ then I could leave.”

Another said: “A male student in my college lifted my top to expose my bra in front of his friends (who laughed) in my college bar. It was packed, but no one stepped forward to help me or tell him to stop. I felt uncomfortable going to the bar for a while after.”

Perhaps this behaviour is prevalent in all our universities, and only gets reported by the press when it is at Oxford or Cambridge? Either way there was a fairly tepid response from the university, which seemed to give the impression they feel things are fine as they are.

By all means don't encourage them to apply if:

They want to do a course Oxbridge don't do
They don't like the course components
They don't fancy the location
they live in Scotland ;)
they don't think they can make a competitive application.

But try to get them to reconsider if:

They think it's full of public schoolers (When the MAJORITY are state educated... and Durham, Bristol, Exeter etc are more full of Hooray Henrys)

They think it will be too much hard work (It's not that bad. Any course worth doing will be hard work. DS keeps up well with work and does some amazing extra curriculars and social stuff.)

They think they can't afford it (If they can't afford Oxbridge, then they can't afford anywhere, unless they stay at home). Oxbridge is CHEAPER.

They didn't like one of the kids on the open day, or the tutor looked at them in a funny way (lots of that on this thread, shame.)

They're not sure about the college system (it's lovely, so easy to make friends and they are so looked after.)

For most events, students are asked to sign up rather than being selected. So it's not really a case of best representatives, rather who wants to commit the time. I know for all my subject open days, it was a case of volunteering. Likewise for college open days and access events.

Sadly that behaviour is prevalent at other universities.

What you learn from being at Oxbridge is just how much the press pick up on anything that happens here. They actively trawl the student newspapers for stories to then publish in the national press - students are under a lot of scrutiny. Equally poor behaviour can happen elsewhere, and does, it's just that the papers like to focus on Oxbridge most of the time.

One thing I will say is that I do not think in any way shape or form the university is complacent about it. There's a huge amount of discussion on campus, and the overriding feeling is that it is unacceptable. As it is. To be fair statistics like that should come out because it shows people think it's an issue and want it to change. Information is power - and having good facts about tue number of people affected makes it easier to effect change. I know in Oxford the university rugby club run training sessions that college clubs are expected to attend with the aim of stamping out misogyny in the sport at the uni.

DD1 wouldn't apply despite pressure from school because 'they're full of geeks and weirdos'!! Me - 'but that's where dad went'. DD - 'exactly!'

It wasn't just that. Both cities are too small for her - she's off to London instead.
DD2 didn't want to apply because she didn't want the pressure of having an interview.

What did you say to DD2 Girls?

That it's her decision.
We visited lots of open days (and she'd been with us touring the country with her sister the year before), so she had a good idea of where she thinks she'll be happy. She doesn't really fancy the college system and turned down Durham partly because of it.
She's the one who will be spending the next three years of her life living and studying in a new place and, although I'm happy to talk to her and give my opinion, I don't want to influence her too much.
She'll do fine from Bristol or York which are her firm and insurance choices after going to applicant days.

Girls, I had a conditional offer from Cambridge and didn't get the grades, so went to UCL instead (a long, long time ago!). I can genuinely, hand on heart, say that I think I probably had a better time in many ways because I loved being in London - so much so that I've never left. I'm sure I would have been perfectly happy at Cambridge but one of the things I adored about London was that when I stepped out of the gate into Gower Street nobody knew or cared that I was a student. I liked that and I loved the immense variety of the city.

Having said that, my son, who has lived all his life in London, really enjoys the smallness of Oxford and being able to walk everywhere.

Horses for courses.

At my comp, they started talking about me possibly applying to Cambridge when I was in the second year. I didn't pay it much heed, but they had a serious talk in the lower 6th (I would be the first person ever even applying for my subject, but one of my maths teachers had a son who was there at the time). I gave it a go, expecting nothing - no formal tuition for the entrance exam but a bit of help (marking past papers) from the maths teacher. Got in. Never felt like a fish out of water, loved it. Swapped subjects for part II after a serious car accident had me in hospital for 6 months, which made me re-evaluate what I wanted to be doing with my life. Adored doing part II. Definitely the right decision. Definitely feel it made my career, because I had maths plus a writing subject which gave me a very rounded skillset as well as the entry on the CV. The flexibility of the tripos is one thing hugely in Cambridge's favour.

DD1 is unlikely to apply, since she wants to go to a conservatoire, but since she will also apply through UCAS she might apply as a back up. Depends on her AS level results - her school reckons you need 90 UMS across the board. She might not apply even if she gets that though, because me having gone is not, in her mind, something that works in Cambridge's favour.

DD2 on the other hand is determined to go, but that's because of the people we know as a result of me going there. She thinks it's the coolest place to go. I have pointed out several times that some of my coolest friends actually went to Warwick, and one went to the university round the corner, but she's having none of it. She is however only 10 so it's unlikely to remain an aim for the next 7 years I'd've thought.

Exactly All. DD1 is going to UCL and I know she'll thrive there. She's done lots of travelling and loves big cities. I honestly think she'd feel a bit claustrophobic in Oxford. London is DD2's idea of hell!

We're all different.

tastingthestars that's reassuring thanks..

I cant speak for my own children. They havent got there yet. I would have bust a gut to go as an undergraduate myself. I didnt because I came from a non university family, who had no idea and relied on my schools, I went to a very poor secondary school and to FE for my A levels. They didnt even tell me about the applications procedure for university let alone how to get in to Cambridge. By the time I found out anything it was too latefor an Oxbridge application and I was barely in time to make a university application at all (this was back when you had to apply before December 15th). So I went to the university nearest my home.

I have a friend who has a daughter who the local school has identified as possibly Oxbridge. She is year 10 ( coming 11). However, she will be moving from her school for A levels as her parents ( both university grads) are trying for a sixth form scholarship for her in an independent school which sends shed loads to Oxbridge, to give her a better chance of making it. The reason they give is, that she needs confidence and some tutoring for this venture and local school wont give that.

One thing that is very frustrating for me, as part of the widening access scheme, is that schools are often very resistent to us coming in before L6.

By then, I often discover that students have developed completely entrenched views, based on years of misiniformation, that they have chosen inappropriate subjects at GCSE/A level, that they're way off the mindset that they'll need to make a successful application to most selective universities, let alone Oxbridge.

It's so unfair on those kids. And the justifications by the schools are a pile of shite.

I'd say children need to be having conversations, with people who know what they're talking about, by yr 6 at the latest. So they move up to senior school with some understanding of what the point of it all is. And what they're supposed to getting from their education.

There's a vast gap between those who grow up having conversations about university and those who don't.