Why didn't your child apply to Oxford or Cambridge?

[ZeroSomeGameThingy]

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/may/27/oxbridge-state-school-numbers-falling

Given that most people who apply will not get in - there's no shame in an unsuccessful application. So what are the real reasons for this apparent reluctance?

Zero point taken in relation to patronising stereotyping, my own daughter and her particularly multicultural group of friends got very fed up of being the ones photographed on outings etc. for the marketing of even their private school.

The point I was making though was that in our local comprehensives the atmosphere is far more conducive to an individual being able to be individual in terms of their interests and aspirations because of the critical mass and access to cultural capital. Very different to being the individual in a school where doing your homework is looked on as being "weird" and being an individual with those aspirations lays you open to all sorts of social pressure from uncomprehending parents right through to bullying and violence.

I am also aware that my experience is of London where the London challenge has made such a difference to the attitudes and aspirations of staff for pupil achievement and to the potential for pupils in these inner city schools, just in the lifetime of the charity I linked to. I have a friend teaching in a rural comprehensive in Ireland and the pressures there, maybe not of gangs or violence, but the peer pressure that dictates school work is a waste of time and you will end up back on the land is every bit as strong.

I agree Theas18 DD2 just couldn't face the idea of being rejected from Oxford so she chose not to apply. She spent a large chunk of year 12 suffering from glandular fever and she just didn't feel that she was up to the whole process. I thought she should have just given it a go but I understood where she was coming from.

Could someone with university aged children please explain how (in the absence of a trust fund) they fund their living costs

The absence of decent living support is a huge issue for many students. Some students do live beyond their means, and have expensive lifestyles, but many others are really struggling with the basics. The student loans system assumes that parents will support their children once over the minimum threshold, but many parents can't or won't do this. The options are:

1. Live at home.

This is an increasing category, but it does mean that university/degree choice restricted to one you can commute to. You also need a home you can stay in, and not everyone is in that position.

2. Work lots.

Some of my students are working 20-25 hours a week during term time to fund university life. This is against the rules, and has a huge impact on their studies, but telling them to stop would mean making them leave university.

3. Run up massive debts

Most students have loans and can get a free overdraft at some level, but many go way beyond this. Massive overdrafts and credit card debts are a huge issue.

A very bright young person is still best off going to university and hoping for the best when it come to the debt. It's very difficult now as a non-graduate to get jobs that 30 years ago only needed a few O levels or maybe an A level or two. Having said that, personally I wouldn't take on that level of debt to do just any old degree from any university. There are some that don't enhance the CV enough to justify the cost.

Bursaries aren't available for very many people unable to afford to go.

Food might be cheap, but £3.50 a meal is still over a tenner a day and that presumably is only if you are lucky to get the deal. Not everyone does and if they do it is usually only for the first year.

You can live outside in cheaper accommodation but then you have to fund transport or the very least buy a bike and fund it's maintenance. Not very expensive, but not free.

They are just 2 universities which may suit some people and not others.
The courses may not be what many want to study.

My older DD is at a London uni, her flatmates from low income families are able to live reasonably comfortably on the maintenance grant, scholarships for fees remission, bursaries and supplementing their income with casual work and in one case a talent for poker.

In many/most Oxbridge colleges you are offered live in accommodation for all three years. College food at 3 pounds per meal is offered for all your time there, even if you don't live in college. Kitchens are sufficient for you to cook cheaper meals by yourself -- I used to live on lentils, pasta etc rather than buying meals from the college canteens.

You could verify these things by looking at the websites of Oxbridge colleges.

I could not have afforded to study in London. Cambridge was significantly cheaper because I got accommodation for all 3 years and they had bursaries for somebody in my position.

(Oh thank god -Shooting - I was wriggling with embarrassment even writing it down.)

I do think it must be grim being an outlier rather than being in a place where ambition is taken for granted.

Uiler makes good points. My son walks everywhere so no transport costs at all except to get home and back again. Oxford and Cambridge are really unusual in being able to offer so much college-owned accommodation for all their students, not just the first years, and also in not profiteering from it. My impression is that a lot of other UK universities are making a lot of money on accommodation.

Zerosum
In a sink comp like the one near me, Ambition is NOT taken for granted, but from what I can gather the staff do try to help the motivated kids. Bullying of "swots" is not permitted - even though the school has mostly low ability kids.
One good thing of the system round here is that when they go to the colleges at year 12, they mix with and are taught by more aspirational people.

weird. has no one else said this? My kids are too young to qualify, however an ex-colleague had a huge chip on his shoulder about Oxbridge being only for Toffs and he would be disgusted to associate with them. During a conf. at Oxf. Uni, He had a long rant about this is why he hadn't applied although he was sure he would have been accepted otherwise.

Anyway, in our discipline, the strongest UK departments were/are at non-RG universities.

No Starlight you're definitly wrong on the specifics if not on the general theory.

No-one at university has to spend £10 a day on food! If you live in say, Cambridge college accommodation you will have easy access to a kitchen where you can cook, or not, to your budget.

It is still perfectly possible to find accommodation within walking distance without living in college. (Years ago the girl in the next room to mine was given a decrepit old bike by our landlady. I was .)

Not difficult to find accommodation in either Oxford or Cambridge, I believe, but private accommodation is more expensive than college-owned.

I might be wrong about the specifics I concede, though am still not convince it is possible without additional funds from somewhere and I'm certain I'm not wrong about the maximum debt you can run up still not being enough to cover it all.

However my DH did his PhD (or whatever they call it there) at Oxford and lived in a house and it was tough for him.

then your kids are going to have their options limited by your unwillingness to take a chance

Doing a Ph.D. is a completely different kettle of fish from doing a first degree. Funding arrangements are quite separate.

PhD is completely different from undergraduate (although some colleges have enough accommodation to offer it to postgraduate students too). And times have changed - when I did a PhD (at Cambridge) 15 years ago the stipend was very hard to live on but PhD stipends have increased significantly in real terms since then. In many areas it is harder to get a funded studentship these days but if you do the stipend is worth more than it was 15-20 years ago.

Starlight, it is tough but it can be done. A whole lot easier if you can find some work. Just £30 a week makes a big difference.

You cannot 'take a chance'. That's the attitude that has ploughed us into a deep recession. You have to have a plan and it has to be viable. Many students have no way of paying off their debts if they graduate, let alone those who don't make it due to lack of funds.
Between ages of 18-21 working full-time (if you can get a job) yields around £30k, which is exactly what that link showed was needed to survive those three years on top of the fees etc.

Most of my kids are bright and grafters. They are lucky they have those resources. I woukd expect them to become experts in a less preferred industry and rise to the top quickly, enabling them to fund themselves in later years if they want to. I fear very much for another of my children.

I can't believe the amount of misinformation on here. It makes me think for all the access work colleges do, it still isn't getting through. I don't know what more can be done - it's almost like people want to think the worst in Oxbridge before really finding out about it. Judging the students on a few you meet at open day, would you do that to any other university?

The majority of students are from state schools. So the majority of students are just like you. And I say the majority because even private school educated students are not some separate species. I just can't believe people write off students on first impressions, just because of where their parents chose to educate them. I'm not saying there aren't self centred, arrogant people. But they are just as likely to exist as at other universities.

In fact often at Oxbridge you're more likely to find people you get on with from the get go. On your first day in college you could meet some 100 other freshers, and I guarantee 99 of them aren't all public school "toffs". Compare to another uni where you live in halls and get to know the people in your flat, maybe some more on other floors and the people on your course. You could easily end up living with people from a background different to yours, and feel alienated.

I say all this as someone who graduated from Oxford within the past few years. There is so much financial help there for students, and increasingly for those who just miss out on the maximum grants. Endowments of college allow for subsidised food and accommodation. You can live out if you want - it's only in first year that virtually all colleges require you to live in. Terms are 8 weeks long - I don't know anyone who didn't manage to find work in the vacations if they needed it.

I don't know how access teams in colleges keep going - I am in total admiration of them. People seemingly don't want to listen to the fact Oxbridge are trying to show how no matter your social background, you still have a shot and you will more than likely fit in.

Final point - not sure if I made it clear but there's no segregation between private and state school students once there anyway.

Bilge.
No risk, no reward.
Too many kids doing stupid degrees in things that should never been turned into degrees.
Too many people not living within their means
BUT
Once you have a decent degree in a decent facilitating subject, the jobs that let you clear student debt in five years are available.

First bilge comment was at starlight

but this
there's no segregation between private and state school students once there anyway
gets a yeah right
Bullingdon lets in state school girls does it?

Exactly, TalkinPeace. And anyway the risk is minimal. If your worthwhile degree from a respected university doesn't generate decent rewards you'll never have to pay the loans back anyway.
Starlight, your repayments are linked to your income. You only make repayments when your income is over £21,000 a year. Repayments are put on hold if your income drops below £21,000.
A graduate earning £30,000 will have to repay £67 a month. Hardly crippling.

Bullingdon Club is a tiny subset of the student population. Most people will never come across them in their student years. It's so tiresome when people mention that, it's totally irrelevant to most students' experience.

What I meant was people don't sit on separate tables at dinner depending on whether they went to private school or not.

By their very nature, Oxbridge students are bright enough to realise friendships can't be decided by your background. If you go in with a chip on your shoulder, you might not get far if you go in with the attitude that everyone is a bright go getter, with whom you will have a lot in common, you'll make a lot more friends.

There's a reason you don't have 1000s of state school students talking about how awful their time at Oxbridge was - because where you come from has no impact on how you're going to settle in. It's to do with your character, and I cannot accept the premise that students who went to private school are horrible, inclusive people unwilling to socialise with others. Because it is just not true.