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Gove kills the mockingbird with ban on US classic novels ...what do you think?

953 replies

mrz · 25/05/2014 09:34

www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/article1414764.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2014_05_24

OP posts:
TheOriginalSteamingNit · 26/05/2014 22:40

Paradoxically, I tend to find students are not very good at having an opinion and arguing for it.. They've been taught to pepper essays with phrases like 'it could be seen to be' or (wrong on at least two levels) 'it is arguable that'... Some of them are enthused and liberated when told that now its ok and even desirable to have an argument, state it and make it... But many never get the point that you don't have to write and essay with a paragraph on What Feminists Might Argue, and one on What Marxists Might Argue ... Etc.

Somehow GCSEs and a levels seem to beat the idea of having an opinion out of a lot of them!

CalamitouslyWrong · 26/05/2014 22:46

I think 'feminists might argue' would be a step up from 'I think based purely on my personal experiences and perhaps a bit of the daily mail via my dad' in essay writing though. Once they've got the idea that they need to think about different arguments and evidence, then you can ask: 'so where would you position yourself in relation to all this? What is your argument?'.

Too many of my first and second years don't seem to have realised that they need to read and engage ideas (and evidence), not just pull opinions out of their arse.

DotToDott · 26/05/2014 22:51

Don't see the point in this at all... Confused

what next? drop French and German because they are not British Languages?

How about sport? Shall we abandon teaching basketball because it didn't originate here.

Ridiculous.

Bonsoir · 27/05/2014 07:38

LuluJakey1 - if I understand you correctly, you think that universal Shakespeare and other classics at GCSE will entrench class divisions?

Bonsoir · 27/05/2014 07:43

Wuthering Heights is the original teen fiction, following on from Romeo and Juliet. I'm sure there must be an interesting take on "teen fiction through the ages" to engage the philistines at KS3 and KS4 Wink.

LuluJakey1 · 27/05/2014 08:10

OriginalSteamingNit - The world of secondary education does not revolve around only preparing students who go on to university. That is my point.

Our school has students who go to university- from Oxbridge to our local Uni. They are well-prepared (in my view). They study Bronte, Shakespeare, Wordsworth etc. Those not going on to study English Lit have just as strong an experience. The school has a reputation for Post-16 teaching although our numbers are very small.

However, a large percentage of our students do not go to university - mainly because they can't afford to, they choose apprenticeships or they are not students who went on to a Level 3 course at 16. Many make 4 levels of progress and achieve D grades at 16 which will show you how low their levels were at KS2. My point is these students should not have to be forced through Wordsworth and Bronte (for example) at the whim of Gove. His belief that they will all benefit from is is twaddle.

Bonsoir- what I actually said was Gove has an agenda that is class-driven. It is to make education disengaging and inaccessible to many teenagers- which will have the most impact on those who live in homes where there is already low cultural literacy and low aspiration. What Gove thinks is good for them is based on his right-wing, elitist, narrow- minded, ill- informed view of education.

I sense Gove fans here with similar entrenched views; admitted or not . I think I will bugger off back to the real world and leave you both to it.

Toomanyhouseguests · 27/05/2014 08:28

I haven't read the whole thread.

There are plenty of amazing British authors. British literature should be taught.

But, 20th century English language literature is hard to cover without a little look at novels/plays/poetry outside these islands. The Americans had a good run in the 20th century. Faulkner, Miller, Steinbeck, Albee, Fitzgerald, Lee, Salinger, Hemingway, Heller, Plath, Cummings, Frost, Ginsberg, etc.

Bonsoir · 27/05/2014 08:29

How does not introducing teens from homes with low cultural literacy to higher forms of culture counteract entrenched class divisions Confused?

LuluJakey1 · 27/05/2014 08:30

OriginalSteaminNit Bonsoir Wink

mrsruffallo · 27/05/2014 08:32

He is not banning anything. This is just anti Gove hysteria

LuluJakey1 · 27/05/2014 08:34

Bonsoir 'Higher forms of culture'.

'Nuff said. Grin

bluestrawhat · 27/05/2014 08:46

One thing is the lack of understanding of the practical impact in schools. OM&M has been taught successfully for decades. Teachers have honed their resources and approaches, book cupboards are stuffed full of these books. And now they're supposed to chuck 'em all out and replace them and all their resources at a cost of thousands not to mention the time. That would be sort of OK if English teachers weren't in the middle of everything else changing from KS1 to A Level.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 27/05/2014 08:55

Lula I agree with you about the problems with the term 'higher forms of culture' - I just think OMAM is not a good book and the fact it's been taught for ages is not a good enough reason for it to go on being taught.

Some books I've taught every year for ever, I'd be delighted to have a change: it gets so stale anyway - and that's without the very dubious messages of OMAM, its brevity and its lack of any challenge.

And I'm unpersuaded by the idea that it's somehow miraculously turned out to be the ideal text for your year 11s every year!
'Wow.... so you know how we know year 11 incredibly well? Well, I've been having a think about the book they're most going to do well at discussing because they can relate to it, and you're not actually going to believe it, but....'
'What - you're not telling me it's that book we've all read and got SoW for again?'
'It is, yes! What are the chances!'

noblegiraffe · 27/05/2014 09:02

So we need a separate qualification 'English lit for plebs'? What should it contain? Some Katie Price perhaps?

TheWordFactory · 27/05/2014 09:12

Honestly, the idea that certain categories of students don't benefit from exposure to excellent, perhaps challenging literature really pisses me off.

I was one of those students! I lived in one of the most deprived sink estates in the UK. No one in my family had ever stayed in school past 15...

But literature opened up a whole new world. And one thing all those books taught me, was that I could relate to them, because even in my situation, the themes of those good books were universal.

I'm sorry but we have to stop this patronising crap that says poor people can't properly access the arts. Though I'm sure it's well intended by the liberal classes, it actually entrenches the class divide.

LuluJakey1 · 27/05/2014 09:13

Our Y11's don't all do OMAM, I never said they did. You are making an assumption. Nor do they do Emily Bronte- thank God!

noblegiraffe, well the nasty right- wing, elitist Tory voters are showing their true colours now. 'Plebs'.

I think we can all see the attitudes that you have towards other groups of people who you consider somehow lesser rather than just different.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 27/05/2014 09:15

You really seem to have an issue with Emily Bronte! Why?

TheWordFactory · 27/05/2014 09:20

Lulu disadvanataged children are not different!!!

They are exactly the same. Which is what good literature shows us; the universality of human experience. That the human 'story' endures.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 27/05/2014 09:22

Well, from my beef with OMAM to another with liberal humanist arguments about 'universal human themes', but I've got to go to work now...

Today I am mostly disgreeing with everyone Grin

Slipshodsibyl · 27/05/2014 09:24

People generally aren't ignorant of the argument that the idea of 'High Culture' might be a form of social control and exclusion. Neither do they exclude newer, popular culture: a teacher earlier said she likes to to graphic novels with her students and there is an exhibition at the British Library at the moment of graphic novels and comics. Popular culture is celebrated.

But doing one doesn't have to exclude others. Richard Hoggart's 'The Uses of Literacy - Aspects of Working Class Life' was written in 1957, but is still available in Penguin Modern Classics and is still a explanation of some of the things that make social mobility more than just a case of getting people into university. It is well worth reading as he was one of those children.

Bonsoir · 27/05/2014 09:25

"I think we can all see the attitudes that you have towards other groups of people who you consider somehow lesser rather than just different."

You are the poster who is expressing the idea that some groups of people are unable to access some forms of culture. You are the one who would deny education to those who come from homes "with lower cultural literacy".

SagaNorensLeatherTrousers · 27/05/2014 09:25

I fear all this business with UKIP has made the bigoted more outspoken in their views...

noblegiraffe · 27/05/2014 09:30

Er Lulu, I was clearly taking the piss out of your view of the kids you teach as somehow unable to appreciate Shakespeare.

If you think that my post comes across as right-wing and elitist, perhaps you should examine your own view as it was you I was channeling.

TheWordFactory · 27/05/2014 09:30

slip I agree.

And let's not forget that many works that we see as challenging today, were part of popular culture in their day Grin.

I actually think popular culture is far more enjoyable when you also have exposure to higher forms of culture and vice versa. The endurance of the human condition within both reflects our narrative, I think. Sorry nit Wink.

noblegiraffe · 27/05/2014 09:35

I posted a link to Teach Like a Champion before. Here's another extract, for Lulu:

"Content is one of the places that teaching is most vulnerable to assumptions and stereotypes. What does it say, for example, if we assume that students won’t be inspired by books written by authors of other races? Or by protagonists of different backgrounds than their own? More specifically what does it say if we are more likely to assume those things about minority students? Do we think that great novels transcend boundaries only for some kids? Consider the novelist Earnest Gaines’s description of the authors who inspired him to write. Gaines, who wrote several of the most highly acclaimed novels of the twentieth century, including Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman, A Lesson Before Dying, and A Gathering of Old Men, grew up poor in rural Louisiana on the same land his family had share-cropped for generations, He was the eldest of twelve children and was raised by his aunt—the kind of kid to whom some might ascribe a limited worldview, probably without asking, and to whom few would assign a diet of nineteenth-century Russian novelists. Yet Gaines recalls: “My early influences were…the Russian writers such as Tolstoy, Turgenev and Chekhov. I think I’ve also been influenced by Greek tragedy, but not by Ellison and any black writers. I knew very early what it was I wanted to write. I just had to find out a way to do it and the…writers whom I’ve mentioned showed me this way.”

Let me say that I love Ellison, just as I love Gaines, and am not suggesting we not teach his work (to all students incidentally). But imagine the loss not just to Gaines but to all of us if the teacher who first put Turgenev in his hands and inspired the spark of genius to grow into a flame had looked at the color of his skin, assumed that Gaines wouldn’t find interest in anything so foreign, and thought better of Turgenev."