11plus pressure

[beachhead]

Hi I'm trying not to get too stressed, living in a grammar school catchment.10 mins walk from the grammar got to try the 11+

It's hard getting a 10 yr old to do extra study, I'm using Bond sample test maths papers. Every day just trying about 30 mins work.

Anyone got ideas on how not to end up having ds hating me?

It wasn't t intended to be nasty. It was intended to indicate that it is a less than perfect selection process. And to indicate that I am unhappy with the obvious corollary "bottom". If it makes you feel any easier about it, I have one child in the "top" 25% and another, much brighter child in the "bottom" 75%.

OP- if you're still here, the point about big going up the alternatives is very well made- however much you ban "pass or fail" that's how it is perceived by most children. Find something the alternative school does better than the grammar (football, in our case).

And as for practise,the single most difficult thing for most kids is timing. They have to work very fast and accurately. The verbal reasoning papers usually have codes which are a doddle once you've been shown how to do them- there are books available. And some children can do the non verbal reasoning easily, but once again, there are only a limited range of types of question- they all fit into categories, and once you've learnt how to recognise the "type" you're away. The maths can be a problem because it covers things which are not taught til year 6, and the test is at the beginning of the year. Basic algebra and probability help a lot. As does knowing that if it's a multiple choice usually two answers are very obviously wrong so you only then have to choose between 3.

The 10 minute test papers are brilliant. One a day- you can often knock that on the head in the car. There are also some good websites- sometimes kids respond best to online practise.

Really interesting post, Martorana. Have PMd you.

Actually, the maths topics Martorana mentions aren't necessarily left till Y6, it depends what level your child is working at in earlier years. They make up a very small percentage of the questions on the separate maths papers the kids have to do where I live, though - and there are far more marks to be gained from having a solid knowledge and ability to apply all the other stuff. If you are keen to introduce your child to algebra before the school do, rather than workbooks etc you could go farther and fare worse than using the dragonbox iPad/iPhone game. My DS had it because one of his mates did, and DD2 demanded it also - they both found it quite addictive (as these games so often are) but unlike some games (Blake's 7 2048 I'm looking at YOU) it has a genuinely beneficial effect. My DD2 though would have been better served practising reading interpreting and drawing graphs, mind you - all earlier level stuff - because she reckoned there was loads more of that in the 11+ than 'the nice stuff'. I think sometimes people concentrate on the frilly bits and forget the basic stuff.

Re Dragonbox 5+ or 12+?

Yes re the maths topics,my dc are starting to do some we were worrying about(if they'd be covered before the exam) at school.

You'll need to check they'll be covered or just play safe and do them yourself.Leaving stuff like that until August if it hasn't been covered wouldn't be ideal.

It's interesting re the maths.My two boys are all rounders so should get pushed re the maths at school.Dd will do fab at VR and has amazing reading comps skills.I suspect she won't access the top of the top group maths stuff beforehand.Does that mean she wouldn't really suit the grammar?Do grammars assume all kids are brilliant at everything?You could get a highly intelligent child at say science who is awful at writing,should you not then coach in that area?

"Do grammars assume all kids are brilliant at everything?"

Depends what you mean by "brilliant". I think grammars expect kids to be at a comfortable level 5. The superselectives are a different animal.

In my experience, the kids who ended up struggling a bit were the ones who were very science/maths oriented. It seems to be easier for a clever arts oriented child to do well enough to get by in science and maths than the other way round.

Lots of the maths wasn't covered ime. And the 11 plus maths questions are a slightly different style than the SATS questions imo (you have to translate them first into the actual maths that is being asked, SATS were more straightforward).

It's not rocket science though - there are plenty of books & websites around to help parents who haven't done maths for years & you can teach your child it yourself.

Agree that the 11 plus doesn't necessarily select the "brightest". Like any exam it will find the children that do well in tests. In our case ds3 is more academic than ds2 - and enjoys studying/bookwork more than ds2. But I knew ds2 would be fine in an exam, not so sure about ds3 - I think he's someone who might mess up just because it's an exam. So we still need a decent second choice we're all happy with.

12+

I can't help you with the issue of not being strong in all areas since both my girls were/are top table types for both maths and English. The non top table across the board types who tried the exams at their schools - both times - didn't get in. But that of course doesn't mean they aren't/weren't suited to the schools, it means 240 kids (if you count both schools accessible from where I live) scored higher marks than them. That's the issue with super selectives, it's not about a pass mark it's about coming in the top (or "top" pace Martorana) 120 scores on the day. It's not completely a lottery but it's a process not without lottery elements. There is also the issue of the changed rules for people on FSM - if they get a qualifying mark, they will automatically go to the top of the ranking in at least one of the schools next year. Not sure about the other one(s). Thus, it won't necessarily be the top 120 marks that get in any more (though it still might be). But then, having thought about it - since they weight for age it possibly isn't even now. There is one girl, older than DD2 (now in Y8) who didn't get in when it was her turn who has spent the last 6months telling DD2 she only got in because she is August born and got 'unfair' extra marks. It's a minefield.

"(or"top" pace Martorana) "

Rather churlish, I think, particularly considering that you didn't acknowledge my explanation......

I don't think your explanation is an explanation, it's a restatement of your view. Which as I point out in my last post might actually be slightly fairer than I initially thought since going forward it definitely might not be the top scores that get the places in some schools. However since your beef seems to be more about people who don't achieve the qualifying mark than ranking within the qualifiers I'm not sure how relevant that is. Your use of "" strikes me as being quite similar to the thing about bonus points for being young that DD2's acquaintance can't let go of. And I too have a DC who isn't at or going to grammar school - he didn't even take the test and has no problem in accepting that in the tests they took, his sisters scored ok.

"However since your beef seems to be more about people who don't achieve the qualifying mark than ranking within the qualifiers I'm not sure how relevant that is. "

Really don't understand this. I don't understand how anyone can say that a system that selects almost exclusively privileged middle class children whether it is a ranking system or by a set qualifying mark is likely to be genuinely selecting the top 5, 10 or 25%. How likely is it that the cleverest children are all in that socio economic group?

Hmm interesting.

Re the fsm I assumed they were already doing that,it says on admissions those starting Sep this year have that stipulation.Is it new this year then?Wonder how much their combined score this year will have to be to account for that.

Also the scoring is different for the boys and girls.The boys have a combined score for everything whereas the girls it's the highest in VR and then a pass in Eng and maths.What do you reckon they'd need to get in Eng/maths as obviously the pass percentage goes up?

Tbh I'm considering C F for dd as not keen on the all girl thing although we haven't even visited yet(might think otherwise after seeing them both).Is it easier to get in there?Dd's maths is actually pretty good,she suffers from confidence and interest issues in it though.Maybe she wouldn't be suited to either as would be miserable in maths lessons.

Should be PMing you all thus,sorry op.

I reckon there's an new career for accountants here. Anyone who can make money "disappear" so a family can qualify for FSM for a year or two will be quids in. Another string to the bow of the ones who advise non resident parents?

Re the age thing it's actually two tents of diddly squat,something like a percentage point for each month.I asked.

Retropear- my dd struggled with maths, and ended up in the bottom set at grammar school. It was the best thing that could have happened to her- there were only 5 in the set and the individual attention gave her such confidence that she flew- ending up with an A*! Much to her hysterical amusement on results day........

tenths

Oh that's encouraging.

Mort, I LOVE hearing stuff like that. Well done to your DD!

At the super-selectives near us places are won and lost over a spread of about 3 points. Any point for age could be a deciding factor.

Blu- which just reinforces how utterly ridiculous the selective system is.

Great,well my Sep boys are stuffed then.

Mantorana - I agree!

In schools like that the difference of one point must surely mean that it is luck on the day - which children from a high-NVR/VR achieving bunch will gain or lose a point on the day. And in full Grammar areas, at the dividing line between those that head for Grammars and those that head for the secondary moderns must be equally random, in individual terms.

Which is why, OP, I think it is important to play down the currency of it all. My (high achieving, comp dwelling) DS at 11+ age would have not tried in order to be sure of not passing rather than face the anxiety and competition of maybe passing. Two years on and with more maturity, he would be up for a competitive challenge and study like mad. It depends on the personality of the child and the reasons for reluctance.

(I'm glad not to live in a Grammar area, don't feel the need of it for Regular-Grammar-ability DS, and didn't choose to go for the super-selectives within reach - just our choice, and one we were able to make as we have good comps. Not commenting on any one else's choices)

Franky, they are very unlikely to have a A* in passing the 11+, and so no use at all to the OP.

You wouldn't be advertising by any chance would you? Because if you are, go and do it on the appropriate board and pay your fee like a gentleman.

DORKaid? Blimey.

Had success teaching my child without spending a fortune on a tutor thanks, will do the same for the youngest. If he doesn't get in then it's not the right school for him.

And yes I am trying to work out what an A* in the 11 plus is.