Church schools - how can they get away with it?

[CountessDracula]

Am I right in thinking that they are state funded?

How come they can pick and choose when others can't? Isn't it essentially exclusion on the basis of religion, isn't that BAD in the current climate?

And if you were of no religion at all you might have different views too!

The go-to-church-for-the-school thing - I couldn't physically do it. I know it's easy for me to say, as we have already got DD (and, barring stupid cock-ups, DS) into the primary school of our choice, but I just could not stomach going and sitting in a pew for two hours every Sunday and mouthing platitudes I don't believe in worship of a deity I consider fictitious.

I'm interested to know how people manage it. Is the whole familty expected to go? I only ask because DW is slightly more of a "believer" bent (she went on an Alpha Course once and has taken the kids to church on and off, but not so much these days - it's as much as we can do to fit everything esle in!) If we'd been a place-seeking family, I'd never have gone, but if she'd wanted to go with the children would it have seemed odd? Would people have asked "where's hubby" kind of questions? I suppose it depends on the church.

This is always such a contentious subject. But what makes me MADDER is the selection all state schools operate, by means of house prices. To get into the local primary school (which we rejected in favour of the local CE school ), you have to live really close. However, a few years back it came top of the league tables, and house prices in its catchment shot up, and are about 30k higher than an identical house not in the catchment.

Secondary schools are exactly the same - tbh I don't know what we will do if ds1 doesn't get into the CE secondary, as we can't afford to move into the catchment for the ONLY other decent secondary in the city. There is no way on earth he is going to the secondary whose catchment we are in. I would rather he went to no school than to that one!

But when people get so worked up about the church schools (only half of which or so actually apply selection criteria - the VA ones), it isn't true to say that non-faith schools are available to all. All who can afford it, which isn't really the aim of state education is it!

why would we want to make the divide in this country wider though? i really don't see why religion should be part of the education process at all. my son only has a couple of mates round here that go to his school, the other children all go to schools a bus journey away. it's so sad.

tortoise - pushing against an open door here!
I could rant for hours about how the supposed equity of the comprehensive system is being undermined by catchment-area paranoia.

Estate agents just fuel the fire with their comments in house details about houses being "in the catchment for reputable schools".

Even making it compulsory for people to go to their nearest school wouldn't solve it - the houses in the "best" catchments would just end up costing 40-50% more rather than 20-30% more as they do already...

UnquietDad - hadn't read the rest of the thread, just spotted your earlier post about catchment areas!

Our area operates a loopy system, where each school has a circle around it, which shrinks until it has the right number of children in it, and if you're not in a circle for a good school, you'll probably be in a circle for a horrific school 5 miles away that nobody wants to go to (which is why its radius is 5 miles).

Ours is also weird - a roughly circular area representing the city is divided into 'wedges', each with a secondary school and a bunch of primaries in. These wedges radiate out from the centre. Like a cake, but more roughly cut. I'm sure you get it. So you can get some real oddities where streets you'd never expect are in the "best" catchments. You also get streets divided down the middle - ouch.

A friend in the NW lives in a medium-sized town where the school is the 'hub' of a roughly circular catchment - seems slightly fairer, as they then take everyone, from leafy suburbs to council estates.

Our city kindly provides a "catchment-o-matic" site where you can type in the name of any street and find out which school the council, in their wisdom, deign to designate for your children.

I sense this is drifting away from faith schools. I'm sure someone will bring it back...

ok, i dont mean to offend anyone with this comment and it is just my own opinion, but, i beleive that religion is actually the root of all evil and is why i dont want to feel like i have to be a hypocrite and get DS christened just for the sake of his future education. religon should not come into the placement of children in schools.

look at all the wars and acts of violence and terrorism that have happened in the world. the vast majority are down to religion in some way. WW2 with hitlers persecution of jews, N.Ireland and the sectarian clashes between catholic and protestant, the middle east situation, the "war an terrorism" as it has been dubbed, even the current civil war in Iraq is down to religion. I even beleive that as far back as roman times the wars were partly due to religion, as they tried to rid the world of religions like paganism and re write history according to their religion.

this is of course my personal opinion and my rany is over

"mouthing platitudes I don't believe in worship of a deity I consider fictitious."

Of course, QD! If you are in attendance under false pretense, then you should not be there. But, for parents who do genuinely believe, and do genuinely want their children to have a fath based education, then that is different. I see nothing wrong with a faith based education for those who want it.

Perharps those who don't might consider relocating to the good old U S of A, where you can't even say the pledge of allegiance in a state school because it contains the phrase "one nation, under God..."

I'm not actually saying that church should not be separated in from state. I am saying that today in the United Kingdon it isn't separate. So to use separation of church and state as a basis for the argument the public funds whould not support faith schools is simply illogical.

Why doesn't everyone just go to their local state slchool...i'm sure this would be better for all in the long run...community too. Go back to when chidlren could walk to school..create a sense of community ..being able to walk to friends houses...we wouldn't then have the situation where we pay somuch to be in a good catchment area...most schools would have a fair mix of pupils of all backgrounds and abilities etc...much simpler ..at the end of the day..the fact is that the school can only make so much difference.We all know children that attended private schools lwoh performed badly and those that went to 'poor ' state schools that performed well. The most important facto is parenting and home life. If the child is interested and the paents are interested and we went back to the simpler way...we'd all do much better out of it and not be duped into paying for private schools!! (I thinlk this message should probably be in a differnt thread though).

ideally yes, lemony, but I don't think it would alter the problem if everyone were forced to go their local school - for the reasons I've mentioned below. Thinking about the city where I live, the divisions would still remain. DW and I still couldn't get a house in the catchment for the top-performing state school here without winning the lottery. Well, we probably could get a 2-bed terrace, but that's all.

(Although I note the results are out today and said top school has dropped quite a bit while the cluster behind it is catching up a bit - the gap is closing. hmmm, interesting! A few parents there will be a bit less smug today, methinks...)

Why should people be divided by wealth? Do you think rich kids should be offered better state funded education than poor kids? That would be the case if we were all forced to go to our closest school.

'Well, we probably could get a 2-bed terrace, but that's all. '

A fate worse than death, I'm sure.

our school funded by LEa and a will from X hundred years ago

All I can say is arrghhhhhhhh

oh, expat, I KNEW someone would pick me up on that Nothing wrong with 2-bed terraces, but EVERYTHING wrong with paying the same price for one as we would for a 4-bed detached in our area of the city. Okay?

Drat those laws of supply and demand, Unquiet!

Location, location, location.

It is all artificially ramped-up by the estate-agents, though - "good" areas are good because people are told to perceive them as such. "Up-and-coming" areas are the next best, but I've been aware of the housing market for 10 years now and these areas should really have "upped and come" if they were going to get anywhere. Other people are daft enough to pay £300K to live in a shoebox just because it's just inside the tighter-than-a-gnat's-whatsit catchment for the only school in the area which has a nice uniform and where the mummies and daddies are doctors and solicitors and the children aren't carrying knives, but it doesn't mean the house is WORTH that.

And faith schools don't help, because they just help to stoke the league-table paranoia.

For the OP, the situation here is that the school HAS to accept people from where we are (about half a square mile- the only part of the palce that existed when the funding was drawn up), then they pick and choose very carefully indeed from the rest. It is the only school for this bit though, so it is a double edged sword for non-religious heathens like us.

It's a good school in a good area (we shouldn't be here as sommoners , but it's near the Uni) and I am pleased ds2 and I rpesume ds3 get to go there, I'd like mroe options for ds1 though as he has more specific needs. I don't have those options.

Hi

We send our children to a Catholic school because we want them raised as catholics - its part of our culture and we both were raised that way. The government has pledged to increase the number of faith schools because its a formular that works. They tend to be very good schools with a strong sense of discipline, they teach children moral and spiritual values and the children at our kiddies school are very considerate, well behaved and well rounded (intellectually and culturally that is - not refering to the obesity debate here). We couldn't find those qualities in any of the other state schools in the area (i.e. non-faith schools). We don't believe in private schools - not for us anyway. We also like the fact that the faith school is classless - i.e. based on a deep principle and belief in a way of living, rather than class dictated by catchment area (by the way we live in a very posh area and we didn't was DS and DD to be surrounded soley by over-privilaged children). The school is also very multi-cultural (Irish, Spanish, Philippino etc), which we also wanted as we are a mixed race family. All children are equal there, rich or poor and welcomed as part of the catholic community. The reason the community is so strong is because it also extends to the parish churches each Sunday i.e. we are part of the church community, of which the school is one part - rather than just being parents with children at a local school. This sense of community is a key part of the school's strength.

I can't really see why anyone would want to get their children into a faith school if they don't practice that faith - apart from that they are very good schools (hence the false church going by some parents), which of course they are. As they are proven to be excellent schools, on the whole, surely we should be importing some of their values and standards into non-faith schools, rather than slagging them off and suggesting they discriminate against people. Most faith schools do admit a number of non/other faith children, 'specially if they have special needs, but to admit to many would dilute the values and ethos of the school and put in jeopardy the very things that make it work.

By the way, ALL faith schools generally are very good schools - not just Christian schools. Also there is no evidence that going to a faith school turns you into a war lard or a terrorist. The situations in northern Ireland and the middle east are a lot more complex than that; to do with the dispossession of the indigenous population and the the subsequent discrimination they have suffered by the colonisers/occupying armies. To suggest its based on religion is showing a lack of knowledge about the histories of those countries. If if were just religion which made people fight, the whole of London would be warring wouldn't it? Unrest is a symptom of inequality, not because someone prays each day

Make Tea; not War

Could a school be accused of indirect discrimination if they give priority to say Catholics in an area with a large Muslim Pop?

My area has a large Muslim pop and there are several Christian Faith schools about with restrictive selection practices (one even carried vacant spaces rather than give the space to a child with different religion) this means that the Muslim kids often have to travel far to a school with a less restrictive policy.

I agree abolish all Faith schools and I personally would teach bugger all about any religion in school. So says an old Convent Schooled woman!!!!

.....and the reason we were well disciplined was because we were terrified of Hell and God and Purgatory. My English teacher once accused me of 'selling my soul to Satan'. Don't even get me started on the sexual hangups that a Catholic Convent Schooling can bring.

Uwlia - why should the wealthy get good state funded education? - I think this is a total red herring.

My kids go to a good school because we choose to buy a smallish three bed house in an expensive area when we could have had a huge five bed house in a cheaper area. That is our choice. We are part of a local community and hopefully contribute to it and our school.

No wonder you are laughing - you have got the bigger house and you ship your kids across town to get the good school as well!!

Yes, in an ideal world all schools would be great and all kids would have the same educational opportunities. But the playing field is skewed even before the child is born, wealth allows choice, choice allows opportunity etc...

Under Tony Blair the system has become even more skewed - the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Don't kid yourself - faith schools are just another tool to allow the middle classes to get the better education and allow them to hold on to all the advantages.

Your choice is also the choice of the schools to pick the kids who go to their school.

Don't blame you, I no doubt would have done the same if I was you BUT please to don't pretend that your choice is in some way morally justified because people with more money than you who live in Richmond get better educational opportunities.

bloody good posting fatfox well done!!

"Most faith schools do admit a number of non/other faith children, 'specially if they have special needs, but to admit to many would dilute the values and ethos of the school and put in jeopardy the very things that make it work."
fatfox I don't understand your logic there. why would admitting the children of atheists or muslims, say, to a Catholic school "dilute the values and ethos of the school"? on the face of it that is a pretty offensive statement tbh.

FATFOX

Brilliant post.

"Most faith schools do admit a number of non/other faith children, 'specially if they have special needs, but to admit to many would dilute the values and ethos of the school and put in jeopardy the very things that make it work."

In other words, the point of faith schools as far as some users of them go is precisely to segregate their children from non-religious children. How can this possibly be a good use of public money - how can this be good for society as a whole??

Some people also seem to be missing one point when they ask why non-religious people would want to send their children to a faith school anyway. In many cases, and in mine, it's not the religious school that I might want to send my child to, rather it's the non-religious, non-segregated school that could be using the same state funds if those funds weren't being used for a faith school which my child isn't welcome in. For me at least the point is that that state-funded school shouldn't be religious at all - not that it should stay very religious (and the faith schools round here seem mostly to be very religious) but just let my child in.