Church schools - how can they get away with it?

[CountessDracula]

Am I right in thinking that they are state funded?

How come they can pick and choose when others can't? Isn't it essentially exclusion on the basis of religion, isn't that BAD in the current climate?

Of course 'faith' schools discriminate! That's exactly and precisely what they do. It is their USP.I think if you like discrimination against children on the grounds of what their parents happen to believe, you like faith schools, if you don't, well, you don't.
If you want to segregate your kids, that's your business, I suppose. It just pisses some people off that you want other people to pay for it.

Harpsi - duh? Because non-catholics wouldn't be practising catholics, which is the ethos of the school! Although Muslims, in practising a faith, would find much more in common with the school ethos than, say, someone who practices no faith and despises those who do. I know Hindu families who have their children at a catholic school and they are very happy with it. If we lived in Tower Hamlets and had no access to a Catholic school, I'd be very happy for the kiddies to go to one of the local muslim schools, ditto Jewish schools etc, as they would still have the strong sense of community and moral principles that their current school does. I rather they went to another faith school, than a school which doesn't teach those strong principles.

Drosophila - I think you'll find that Catholic schools have changed a lot since we were at school. Similarly, Catholic parents have changed too - there are as many liberal Catholics as there are liberal Jews, liberal muslims etc. We don't all agree with the Pope on everything. In fact neither does my Priest!

Kaz - please could you present sound evidence to support your point that faith schools are another tool used by the middle classes? Faith schools are based on faith, not catchment area. My orthodox Jewish neighbour drives 12 miles each way to take her sons to an orthodox Jewish school in North London. Catholic schools are generally populated by Irish working class children, with smatterings of Spanish, Polish etc. Where is the evidence to support your point?

I agree middle class families know how to work the system, but that applies more to catchment areas, where many people use false addresses to access a place at a good school.

nicely put sorrell. I want to send my child to my local village school. I want to send my child there because it is 100 yards away and will be full of children she knows.
I don't want to send my child to a school several miles away (to the nearest non faith school) meaning a long car journey across crappy country roads, which is not part of the community I live in.
I don't want to send my child to a faith school. I want my local school to stop selcting children on the grounds of religion, and to be more inclusive and serve the whole local community.
I have no problem with churches setting up their own churches if privately funded or church funded.

The same amount of funding would be available whether or not it goes to faith or non faith schools. Its the faith schools that are generally over subscribed, along with those located in middle class enclaves. All those faith children would still have to go to school somewhere...

Moral principles are not exclusive to religious schools. Some of us would say it was quite the reverse.

Yes, they could go to local schools with - gasp! - children of other faiths and none. To learn, not to worship. In an inclusive environment that would not push out and discriminate against other children on the grounds of what their parents believe. And not force other parents to drive their children miles to get to the only school that will accept them and not try to indoctrinate them.

"I think that single sex and religious schools are both anachronisms "

hee, hee, i work in a single sex religious anachronism. do i get more points for that?

I appreciate that in many circumstances faith schools are the best, that's why I wanted my children to go to one. However, I do not think that this makes them right.
My own view is that faith schools have a very high rate of parental interst. Parents are really keen for their children to go to these schools. In London you can be a regular church attender & still really struggle to get into the faith school of your choice & beliefs.
I would very much like to see all schools perform as well as faith schools, because I believe that all children have the right to good education. I do not believe that we necessarily have the right to state funded state schools & ideally I would like to see them abolished.
Faith is the choice of the individual - not something that should be state funded.

"All children are equal there, rich or poor eand welcomed as part of the catholic community."
no, children are not equal. they are divided according to their parents religion. I find that abhorrent, I really do. To deny the most needy children a good education and the benefits that brings on the basis of their parents' religion, because their presence would dilute the ethos of the school. Is that ethical? Is that Christian do you think?

I think it is quite interesting that the US, which is quite Puritan, has managed to have a separation of church and state, whereas the UK has not. I was completely unaware of this difference until I started posting on MN. Having always lived with our system, it does seem bizarre that the state funds faith-based schools.

yes, of course the same amount of funding would be available. but available without discriminating on the grounds of religion, and without a system of schools that are not accessible to a percentage of the population on the basis of religion.
which would be, for want of a better word, fairer and better.
sorrell and bugsy, you are being marvellous here I think I might leave you to it

Sorrell - its not only the moral principles that makes faith schools a success - its the other things I mentioned too.

I suppose my point really, to those of you living close to faith schools, who wish they weren't faith schools so your children could access them is: if they weren't such good schools would you still want your children to go there so much? Our local school is crap. If it used some of the principles that the faith school does, I suspect it would be a better school. And evidence points to the fact that children at faith schools do much better academically, and not based on class or catchment area either. Its because of the very strong ethos of the school.

fatfox, it is not just because of the ethos, though. it is to do with the element of selection too. which means that more "middle class" parents want to attend, which improves results/performance of the school.
to answer your question again - I want my child to go to my local school. that's it really. I really do not want my child to go to a faith school, which leaves me in an invidious but not unusual position.
send my child to a school run along lines that I don't believe in OR try to get her into a school miles away (which may not be sucessful) or pay for private education (don't even go there).

Bugsy's right about the parental input. The research done in the US on this points to parental input being a more important factor in influencing educational attainment than parental income! Which is precisely why Muslim children in Tower Hamlets, living in some of the most deprived wards in Europe, do so well at school - better than local white children. The Muslim parents are heavily involved in the school.Mind you, when the children leave school, they still can't get decent jobs, despite their qualifications, which is probably more to do with racial discrimination.

I am interested, though. do you think it is Christian to spend (limited) resources on education which is intended to benefit Christians and exclude (to a greater or lesser extent) non Christian children?

Personally what I want is the state funding of each faith school to be available to all children in that locality, not just to children from religious families. It's not a case of thinking faith schools should be open to all children because they're the 'best' ones (since I'm pretty sure it's just the usual high parental interest thing going on, far more than ethos or anything fundamentally to do with religion) - it's a case of thinking all state-funded schools should be open to all children, full stop - with catchment areas as the only way of directing particular children into particular schools. (Yes catchment areas can lead to a kind of financial discrimination once a school reaches a sort of 'critical mass' of reputation, so suddenly they're attractive, but at least they have the positive side effect of minimising kids being driven around all over the place.)

"Bugsy's right about the parental input."

I thought you said it was the religious ethos that made faith schools better in some way? If it's the parental input, why do you need a faith school where the nonreligious children are kept out so as not to 'dilute' the ethos?

Harpsi - I don't disagree. All children should have access to a good local school. faith or non faith. I agree with that completely and education in this counry seems to have gone down the pan. We interview people at work, for jobs, who don't even have basic literacy skills. I can understand why you are so annoyed in your siuation, not being able to access the local school because its a faith school, but I think that blaming the faith schools is a red herring. Its up to the government to implement policies which improve the education system for all, not just those who pay or pray. I totally agree on that score. But really think that if faith schools were to be abolished, there would just be more mediocre schools and less good ones.

but fireflighty,it wouldnt be a faith school if it were on that basis

Firefly, I didn't say it as either or did I? I dn't really understand what point you are trying to make. Have you any new points to add, rather han just distorting my points?

I think the example of muslim children in a deprived area doing well scholastically because they attend a faith school, compared to the faithless local kids who don't - shows exactly what is wrong with the current system. It is so blatently unfair & unequal. If a state system is commited to provided good education for all - then in this country it is seriously failing to do this.

I've a feeling this is going to go round in circles now, I have to go to bed.

well, I am annoyed about my own situation but I find the whole system abhorrent tbh.
of course it is due to the faith schools, though. my local school is a CofE school. if it wasn't, then that would be the end of my annoyance.
it would be an inclusive school, just without the influence of the church.
Children of Christian parents in the village could still go there and go to the church and get religious instruction out of school.
I can't believe that if you took away the leadership of the CofE from the school it would suddenly go to the dogs. it would still have the same staff, parents, children, catchment etc etc.

"but fireflighty,it wouldnt be a faith school if it were on that basis"

Which is fine by me - I don't think the state should be funding faith schools.

Fatfox, you did seem to be saying very definitely that it was the ethos:

"And evidence points to the fact that children at faith schools do much better academically, and not based on class or catchment area either. Its because of the very strong ethos of the school"

You said it's not due to class or catchment area. Perhaps you're seeing 'parental input' as correlated with 'parental religion', which I wouldn't - I see it as at least as much linked to class - which means if you're saying it's not class you seem clearly to me to be saying it's more the religious ethos. That's how I read it anyway.

PS The muslim children I referred to don't go to a faith school actually. Its the ethos of the parents and their input that makes those particular schools good. Importing good principles into a non faith school, as I sggested earlier. There is nothing to stop the working class white parents getting involved in their local school. A lot of them are not at work during the day...don't worry I'm not even going to go there.

Sorry, I'm pregnant and tired. Nighty night