Church schools - how can they get away with it?

[CountessDracula]

Am I right in thinking that they are state funded?

How come they can pick and choose when others can't? Isn't it essentially exclusion on the basis of religion, isn't that BAD in the current climate?

Great, never accused you of being a hypocrite, but you are manipulating the system.

Would you send your kids to the local non faith school if it was the best in the area over the not so good C of E school ?

You get more choices - the rest of us get less. Nothing is as black and white as that i know but can you see the fundamental unfairness of it?

But yes I moved where we live as I knew the schools were good - so maybe I am no better, but I believe strongly in local communities, playing with the kids next door etc... Not sticking your kids in a car, driving them across London, clogging up the traffic.

The statistics on how many kids walk to school now is shocking - in the last 30 years it has dropped from being 70/80% to more like 20/30%. Cant remember the exact amounts but still shocking.

Well I am sorry it is Uwilia

If you had not got in because of your C of E affiliation would you have got in on proximity?

If there was no C of E affiliation criteria would you have got in on proximity?

You have therefore created for yourself by some church attendance (not saying hyprocritical) a better choice of education options. Where you have created an advantage for yourself you have logically created a disadvantage for someone else.

UD there are schools nearer to where I live or at the same distance as the faith school which would be more convenient for me for various reasons - two bilingual schools, another is a full day school (as opposed to finishing at 1 pm), school with intensive additional musical training, etc. but I want the specific nurturing, caring environment that dd's school offers and I do want her to grow up in an environment governed by Christian values.

It is shocking kaz33. We believe in the local primary school, local community thing too. (Of course, some would argue that's easy for me to say because the community's a nice one and the school is a good one, but hey...) Round here, 2/3 of the kids in dd's class live within what I'd call 'reasonable walking distance', and yet their parents still put them in the flipping car every morning. (And most then drive back HOME, not on to work.)_ No wonder they're all such a bunch of lard-arses. It's not as if it's a hard route through lots of traffic, either. (And even if it were - duh, you ARE the traffc, people!)

UD - smug walk-to-school Dad.

My road is between two schools and is normally quiet as it doesn't really go anywhere EXCEPT in the morning when the cars suddenly appear.

Hmmmm....

I went to Catholic schools. I grew up in a town with 4 single sex grammar schools, a multitude of secondary moderns and a catholic comprehensive. The secondary moderns now call themselves comprehensives, but of course they aren't, because the 4 grammar schools are still there. The grammar schools had less of an effect on my school, but it did have to compete pretty strongly - streamed fron entry, set in subjects, house system etc. It was a good school, and those of us who probably would have got into the grammar school were not in any way disadvantaged by going there. But it wasn't SEEN as a "good school", because the "good schools" were the grammars of course. I remember going along to a special language course with grammar school pupils and being horribly patronised.

I'm not sure that it's true that parents of children in faith schools are a self-selecting group of middle-class pushy parents. It may be the case for CoE - I have no experience there - but I don't think it fits the demographics of the catholic schools I know. And Tarquin and Hermione could well have picked up pretty undesirable tones at my school.

I agree with the idea of "The Self-Fulfilling Prophecy of the Good School", but I think that applies to non-denominational schools particularly, where the main selection criterion is proximity, and parents can buy their way in by house purchase. My catholic schools did not require attendance, and many, many of my friends did not set foot in a church, but it did give priority to baptised catholics.Turning up on Sundays for a year would not get you a place.

yes, me neither MB. I don't understand why the CofE in particular think it is biblical or in accordance with the tenets of their religion to exclude children on the grounds of faith or prefer children of Christian parents. Imho it is an abuse of their powerful and influential position (not to say of their access to funds) to select on this basis, and not for the benefit of their community or on the basis of need for example.
In many places it is yet another way to disadvantage the poorer, less advantaged children and reduce their educational/life choices.
which makes us all poorer, imho.

i dont mean to put the cat among the pigeons here but could the admission policies of church schools not be deemed as prejudiced. for example if an ethnic minority child did not get in then thry could claim that it was discriminatory against their race and religion. in that instance could non religious parents claim discrimination against them based on religious beliefs. surely it is just as discriminatory and prejudiced to refuse a an asian muslim for instance as an athiest white child

HC IME teh Cof E don't select on the basis of religion until after all teh catchemnt children are in - have already posted about the difference beween CofE VC and VA as well, but here it is agan:

Church of England schools may be Voluntary Controlled or Voluntary Aided. Voluntary Controlled Schools are county schools with a religious bias whereas Voluntary Aided Schools are a type of foundation school.

Church of England schools are firmly fixed in their community. They tend to be older schools set up in villages and parishes by the church to educate the children of the parish at the time when there was very little schooling offered. They serve their villages as community schools.

The differences between the two types of Church of England schools are in the governance and funding of the schools.

The governance of Voluntary Controlled schools is like that of all local authority schools with regard to funding, admissions, staffing and curriculum.

The governance of Voluntary Aided Schools involves

· additional foundation governors on the governing body

· the employment of staff and their conditions of service

· setting their own admissions policy

· the school becomes a trust

· governors are liable for 10% of capital costs, DfES taking up the remaining 90%

· separate inspections of RE

· educational support by the CE diocesan board

Interesting to see how this has progressed!! I take my lo to the family specific services at our localish C of E church and he loves it. There is no hell fire and brimstone (not usually the c of e style) but lots of love, fun and promotion of all the core ideals I would like my son and any futher children I may grow up with to have - respect, truth, caring, understanding, faith, conviction, courage etc etc. Do non faith schools teach/promote these qualities in pupils because if they do I'm struggling to find them in the younger generation that live in my neck of the woods!!!

i was not saying that ethnic minorities get prefderential treatment i was just trying to raise the point of discrimination issues. on that point, hypothetically, if we were pagans would that be classed as practicing another religion?

we havent decided about our sons christening but i think its just really sad that people like myself feel that they have to be hypocritical just to get their child into a local decent school.

maybe the problem actually lies with the government for not making sure all schools are of adequate quality and taking measures to improve those that dont perform.

i can actually see why some people in areas where there a low performing schools and oversubscribed good schools might opt for home schooling to ensure their child gets the education they deserve

Oh fantastic, I'm sooo glad I escaped last night and went to bed, although I lay awake for a while thinking about this thread and feeling cross about the whole thing

lol at Scummy's new toy and just wanted to say, can't be arsed arguing but I agree with CD and Soph.

Oh btw, pmsl at 'the church doesn't have any money' er, I think you'll fnid it absolutely does!

i hate the saying 'schools that don't perform'. children should all go to the same schools regardless of religion/ability/money. especially primary age children. btw we have a freemasons school nearby too

What do they teach them - special handshakes??

who knows, i googled it and some boarding schools actually reserve scholarships especially for masons. have to get dp to do more 'moving and shaking!'

who said that the church doesn't have any money?!?! hahaha almost funny.
well admission criteria vary and (crucially) can be set by school.
but even choosing "after all the catchment children are in" is not meeting the needs of the local community is it? or meeting the needs of the neediest?

And what about those catchment areas??? If you ask me they are sometimes worse than religious acceptance thing. At the moment if we still live where we do when ds is ready to go to secondary, he won't be able to go to the co-ed grammar 10mins down the road if he gets thru the 11+, he'll have to go to the one 40 mins away. Now thats madness if you ask me!!! Why should he be forced to go to a single sex school so he doesn't have hours of travelling every day??? just thought i'd throw that one in!!!

Okay, I haven't read the whole of this thread - would take a while However, I feel that schools are for education - not religion. That's the responsibility of the family and church (whichever one you belong to). Of course religious studies should be part of the curriculum, but as a means of explaining all types - not the reason for the existance of the school. Now I'm going to duck and run

the systems maaad!!

ouch, catchment areas CountTo10 - a real "Don't Get Me Started" for me! Actually, I'd propose that as a new Mumsnet Acroym (am I allowed to do this, as both a man and a newbie?) Certain topics could be designated "DGMS". If anyone sees something which they know will make them seethe and boil and expostulate, all they need to do is pop in, say "DGMS!" and pop out again....

Unquietdad, I think the word round here is "PARP".

I don't really buy the argument that religeon is not part of education. I think that religeon is a very important part of education.

However, I do acknowledge that since I happen to be Anglican and can not afford private school, this system of getting into a school through my chosen religeon suits me very well. If I was of a religeon which is not so well catered for in the faith school system, then I suppose I might have different views.

And, could people please not refer to the muslim religeon as a race. Sorry, podantic I know. But, if we are to get along with other cultures I think we should at least make an effort to know the difference between race and religeon.