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Original poster

Church schools - how can they get away with it?

567 replies

CountessDracula · 23/08/2006 21:33

Am I right in thinking that they are state funded?

How come they can pick and choose when others can't? Isn't it essentially exclusion on the basis of religion, isn't that BAD in the current climate?

OP posts:
Tortington · 24/08/2006 15:09

there are fundementalist anything. look at mumsnet.

my priest is an ex suicidal druggie who makes us hold hands when saying the lords prayer - this was a step too far for me and i changed to sat night mass!

america is to blame. all this happy clappy stuff makes me shiver. DOOM GLOOM death hell damnation - these are the fundemental pillars of catholasism - along with the cornerstone... GUILT

we do penance not holding hands. we do confession to ease the guilt and self flagulate metaphorically

UnquietDad · 24/08/2006 16:53

My problem is not with church schools but with people who abuse the church school system by pretending to be religious for a few months so their children get a place.

Every vicar/priest has a story about the family with a toddler who turn up religiously (ho, ho) every Sunday until the child gets into the school, and then they never see them again.

I'm not remotely religious myself. But I've just thought (rather wickedly) that it would be fun if there were suddenly to be a rule that, in order to safeguard your child's place at a faith school, you had to keep going to church. Miss more than 4 weeks in a row without good reason and your place goes to the next on the waiting list... A 12-year commitment to attend church every Sunday. How many of us heathens would sign up for THAT?

MadamePlatypus · 24/08/2006 16:58

Unquiet Dad, we may have our differences on the A-levels thread, but I think that is a brilliant idea!

UnquietDad · 24/08/2006 17:08

It's not that brilliant - seems such a simple idea that I'm astonished nobody's tried it before now!

SSSandy · 24/08/2006 17:22

Regular attendance of a public place of worship is not the only measuring stick of active faith. I bet 2 percent is far below the number of people who would classify themselves as believers in Judaism, Christianity, Islam - or other faiths for that matter.

UnquietDad · 24/08/2006 17:24

I know, but it's still the measuring-stick they use when it comes to getting a school place.

MadamePlatypus · 24/08/2006 17:44

I think that the least you can do if you expect the state to fund a faith school is spend an hour at church each week - this is less time than some people spend watching Eastenders! Many people define themselves as C of E, but they would have difficulty if you asked them what the creed meant to them.

UnquietDad · 24/08/2006 17:48

Or alternatively, let's just not have faith schools. It would make things a lot simpler.

beckybrastraps · 24/08/2006 17:54

What is it about church schools that makes them "good"?

(And I know this is not your particular beef CD)

Why do people go to such lengths to get their children into them? Why should faith schools so often be the "good school" of the locality? If they were no longer faith schools, would they stay "good"?

Uwila · 24/08/2006 17:57

I find this thread full of irony as I an American whose ancestors left this country to found another one on the very principle of separation of church and state sit here watching British people voicing there beliefs about how this is a secular country and public funds should not support religeous teachings. But, this the Church of England is not separated from the government. It has been well and truly married to the government since Elizabeth I.

Ironically, I have enrolled by child in a COE school. I have done this because I want her to go to a school full of other COE children. I have crossed the LEA lines into more affluent Borough of Richmond (I live in Spellthorne) to do this. I would NEVER NEVER NEVER have gotten (use of "gotten" just for you, CD) in by means of the distance from the school. But, this has allowed my child(ren) to have a better education and I am so delighted that she got in. So very very delighted.

I personally have a much bigger gripe that school entry is tied to how close you live to the school. So, children in rich neighborhoods all go to school together where the funds and donations are higher. No coincidence Richmond tops the league tables every year. I'd much rather drive for 10-15 minutes for my kid to go to a better school. I don't understand why everyone is so interested in sending their kids to the closest school. I want my kids to go to the BEST school, even if it is in Zimbabwe.

Thank God for our lovely COE school.

SSSandy · 24/08/2006 17:57

I'm not a regular church-goer but I wouldn't have considered anything other than a faith school for dd.

Kaz33 · 24/08/2006 17:59

What I hate is all the C of E parents commuting and clogging our parking spaces so that there kids can get into the "best" junior school when there are plenty of great options nearby where they live.

I will send DS's there because we live one minute away and otherwise we probably wouldn't get into another central Guildford primary as they are all rather good, catholic and over subscribed.

But I will let them know that the whole system stinks....

Blair, he's a fundmentalist of the worst order - pretends to be rational but he's just a religious nutter... and he is imposing his ridiclous ideas on our children. And, of course the middle class parents love it.. because it masquerades as choice but is just another way to polarise the education system between the haves and the have nots. RANT OVER

Blandmum · 24/08/2006 18:01

something that has always interested me about Church schools is that they often exclude non observant children, while he biblical injunction is' Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbit them not, for theirs in the Kingdom of heaven'.

Since the christian faith activly seeks converts, it would seem to be reasonable for them to encourage non christian children to attend.

I have never understood this.

Blandmum · 24/08/2006 18:02

and FWIW, I am not an observant anything and pay to send my children to a fee paying C of E school which has an open policy on admissions....as long as you can pay.

Kaz33 · 24/08/2006 18:02

Uwilia - but you got in not because your child was "C of E" but because you were informed, pushy, well educated, no doubt have bright kids at the expense of a kid who lives nearer who doesn't have such clued up parents.

Thats why the system sucks! Nothing personal this is just one of my bugbears

UnquietDad · 24/08/2006 18:02

very pertinent questions bbs.

  • What is it about church schools that makes them "good"?

I think this one is answered by people earlier in the thread - e.g. olivia35 "you have a 'core' of parents with certain aspirational values - being a religious &/or community minded individual probably also makes you a keeno parent. Then other, non-religious parents decide they want a piece of the action."

  • Why do people go to such lengths to get their children into them?

Because, ever since the advent of league tables in the early 90s, parents have become more and more obsessed by the idea of "good" and "bad" schools. Also, if you live in a city, the differences between the "good" and "bad" schools will be hugely pronounced. Some people want their kids to go to the faith school because they know the school will teach a doctrine and values which they know to be supportive of what they teach at home.

Others do so because of the schools' results and place in the league tables - aka The Self-Fulfilling Prophecy of the Good School.

And others do so because they don't want Tarquin and Hermione picking up the nasty accents and ways of those awful children who go to Bogstandard Lane Junior.

  • Why should faith schools so often be the "good school" of the locality?

I refer the honourable lady to the answer I gave some moments ago.

  • If they were no longer faith schools, would they stay "good"?

Very good idea. I'm all in favour of trying it!

UnquietDad · 24/08/2006 18:03

Interested to know why, SSSandy? Is it because all the others in your area are horrible?

iota · 24/08/2006 18:04

According to tthe 2001 census, "In Great Britain, 40 million people (nearly seven in ten) described their ethnicity as White and their religion as Christian."

So that's a lots of Christians who don't go to Church.

link for more info here

SSSandy · 24/08/2006 18:06

Where we live, church attendance doesn't play a role. Nobody checks up on it. They do ask to see the birth and christening certificates of the child. That was it.

Know 3 other families who got a place in dd's class and are from different Christian denominations. In our class, I don't think there are any non-Christian families (my impression from the parent-teacher evening yesterday). Got the impression that a lot of people there have a very strong, clear faith, can't speak for the percentage but my guess is the vast majority. My impression is that for most people, the moral/ethical/religious emphasis was the main motivation in enrolling children there. Proximity to the school isn't a factor in getting a place.

UnquietDad · 24/08/2006 18:06

Yeah, but it's the lazy/easy answer, I think. What religion are you?" "Er, dunno. Well, I'll put C of E." I used to do it.

Uwila · 24/08/2006 18:07

"pushy"? Moi?????

And just so you know. We attand the connected church not because we are hypocrites but because I genuinely want my children raised in the COE faith.

SSSandy · 24/08/2006 18:09

UD we live in Germany, the situation is a bit different. Near where we live there aren't any really bad primary schools as such that you would need to avoid at all costs

UnquietDad · 24/08/2006 18:11

I still don't get it SSSandy. (I'm not having a go - just interested.) Why, if you're not a churchgoer, would you say that you'd only consider a faith school? Are there no non-faith schools near you which are equally good? Is it just your nearest school? (Sorry, think it's me being dim.)

Uwila · 24/08/2006 18:14

"...got in not because your child was "C of E" but because you were informed, pushy, well educated, no doubt have bright kids at the expense of a kid who lives nearer who doesn't have such clued up parents."

Actually, Kaz, this isn't really a fair take on the situation. 70% of the kids get in based on religeous affiliation (defined as go to church at least once a month for the last 12 months), and the other 30% go to kids who live near by. So, if a buddist kid lived accross the street, he would get in. Oh and some other criteria goes in bofre this 70/30 split is determined, like special needds, and children in care, and syblings.

SSSandy · 24/08/2006 18:15

Sorry maybe I just waffled on without answering you. I have a clear (active) faith but I don't go to church regularly. Haven't for a couple of years because it never worked out taking dd along. There are no arrangements for children's church/Sunday School or something and dd loves church but not a whole service long. When she's older, I'll go again regularly. I often go in the mornings or now and again when I can leave her with dh. It's difficult for me to organise on a regular basis.