Why is private education so taboo now?

[DoMyBest]

When I was younger I was privately educated as were most of my friends. Now we all have children and almost all of them have decided to send their children to state schools. Whilst for most of them it was a question of money, for others it really wasn't: they believe that every child should have the same educational opportunities and if parents like them start giving their kids exclusive treatment then the system won't work. Some of these parents chose local 'outstanding' state schools, but one couple with enough money to buy every private school in town admirably chose their worst local state school and work hard to improve it.

I listen to these stories with interest, sometimes admiration but mostly respect for their choices & views.

So it's with some alarm, now we have chosen a private school for our son, do discover the hatred this decision engenders. Private education has, it would seem, become taboo.

So here's my question: is it morally right for people to get angry with parents who privately educate their children?

Errmm was the being part of the community aimed at me? I don't see what that has to do with having children or not having children. Not everything we do in the community has to do with our children.

Matorana didn't they try the lottery school admissions in Brighton or Hastings. don't know if it is still going on but it didn't seem popular.

Taz maybe I've misunderstood you but in the past some have peddled the argument that you have to send your DC to the local school to be truly part of the "community" and that those who send their children to -independent schools it's ok if it's a grammar school-- schools outside of the community they live in are therefore not part of their community which I reiterate is insulting to those who don't have children.
As you can see it's an argument that annoys me so I probably jumped to the wrong conclusion.

wordfactory - while I am somewhat in agreement with you on "Those that are in denial that it matters and cleve to their MC indicators, believeing that those things will be more than sufficient to return their DC to their rightful place in society" I did read some reporting of research quite recently that had tracked families across several generations and "reversal to the norm" (IYSWIM) is what usually occurs - one generation in a family may be nouveau pauvre or nouveau riche but the next generation tends to revert to a previous generation's relative place in society.

There's an old saying 'cloggs to cloggs in three generations'...

I think their might be something in it. The first generation are poor and work their tootsies off to help their DC. The second genertation do the same because they remember being born into poverty. The third generation is born into wealth so they take it easy ...

Perhaps that's the cause of the nouveau pauvre ? Third generation? Had all the advanatges and didn't undertand what needed to be done and what they were seeking to avoid?

To quote Amy Chua 'not on my watch' ...

Mariajenny - my point exactly. These 'educated' children are channeled through a system which is replete with certain expectations and cultural signifiers. Private education's strength is its focus on certain shared values and expectations.

But this society where the 'nice but dim' are unquestioningly employed in positions of power diminishes our industries and our cultural capital, as I have said it is waste of talent, it is a crying shame particularly in areas of innovation in arts, music, science.

People who don't have children are a complet red herring in the 'part of the community' argument, because obviously a child who doesn't exist isn't part of any community! Don't try to make it into some kind of straw man thing about infertility or something, Happy

Am unclear how private schools help children to know whether or not they are enjoying a play; seems patronizing to both sets of children to suggest as much, to be honest.

And I really find it odd when the discussion comes down to this favourite phrase about 'nouveau pauvre', almost as though being 'poor'is a bit of an insult in some way. I don't post as much as some about how little or how much money we've got; I hazard a guess from MN generally that it's enough that if I started a thread asking if I was BU to feel poor on this household income I would be flamed, but not enough that quite a lot of posters wouldn't also say they couldn't think about coping on less than three times that. So, I don't know whether my opinions on the matter are supposed in some way to be related to any of that, but I'm not sure myself how they could be.

ubik I think the arrival of global competition has put paid to much of the old ways.

Tim nice buit dim wouldn't even get a place at Eton or Westminster. He sure as shit wouldn't get a place at Oxbridge. He might secure himself a job on the back of his Dad, but he wouldn't keep it if he couldn't do the do...

That said I do see that the girls at DD's mixed ability private school achieve phenominal grades. Many girls achieve in line with those of the highest ability. Which in turn allows these girls to access good universities and decent jobs. Obvioulsy not the sort of jobs that require degrees in PPE from Oxbridge, but very good jobs nonetheless.

Sorry nit I really don't understand your last paragraph.

What are you egting at?

I'm just perplexed by this nouveau pauvre business, to be honest. I don't buy it.

And yet a country like Germany which does not have a developed private school system (except for nice but dim types) and has much better social mobility does not seem to be affected by thus global competition.

Oh I see. Sorry.

It's just a bit of a joke really.

There is a section of society who are achingly middle class and had all the advantages, yet chose jobs that didn't pay too well. They're not poor of course. Just unable to replicate their own priviledge for theirt DCs.

If you worked in my world you'd meet a lot of them . They always seem very perplexed by me. Big fat northern blonde with no desirable indicators...and yet...

ubik a few points about Germany.

First, a lot of wealthy german DC are educated privately abroad (especially in the UK).

Second, Germany is an industrial economy and this attracts less global competition from other post industrial countries. We don't have the people with the skill set to send there.

Third, and no disrespect to any Germans on the thread, it's Germany. It's just not a place that many globally mobile people want to settle. The cities and the lifestyle aren't what they're looking for.

Happy I think I'm arguing the opposite of what you thought I was. At least I think I am- I might just be hopelessly confused.

I have two DC. One is at a private school and one is at the local state school . We don't live in a particularly desirable area. We could have moved to a very nice middle class town in an expensive catchment with a top 10 state school. We chose to stay here.

I'm arguing that despite DC going/will be going to a private school that we are still very much part of the local community. DS still swims with a local club rather than a much better Edinburgh club, I do lots of volunteer and charity work, we regularly frequent the local arts centre etc. I see this as a good thing.

Of course if we hadn't had children I would have never ever agreed to leave Edinburgh in the first place.

The FT has been looking at this - the jobs which used to mean you were one of the better offs, teaching, university lecturer etc etc (although I doubt they ever meant you were particularly well off) now might not guarantee that but that just reflects how things have always changed. There would have been a point when if you had that mining or car factory job you were made for life on a much higher income than many others around you. My relatives came to a mining area because those jobs were like gold compared with starving on non existent potatoes in Ireland.

Whether we always have cloggs to cloggs remains to be seen. Some recent commentators have suggested we had a brief 100 years where the masses rose and did well but that now talent has out or whatever and the cream has risen or however you want to define it and we are back to much bigger income inequalities which we had for hundreds of years before about 1900 - 2000 and we have just returned to a more income differential norm which may not matter if everyone is housed and fed of course.

I agree that Tim nice but dim will not pass into Eton nor on to Oxbridge nor have the slightest chance at most of the best companies who recruit, these days. However he may perhaps not even need to work. He could live on his parents' inheritance and his children on it etc etc if it's well managed and there is enough money.

Rubbish school locally or an excellent independent (we can afford it).

I know which I chose.

Comprehensive girl here, brought up in a Council house on a large estate, parents worked hard (leaving school at 16), but not professionals, my mum was a cleaner. I left school at 17 after a year of 6th form trying to get some more O'levels - that shows my age!

My daughter is not going to have the type of schooling I had, fighting for survival in amongst the bullying and low expectations.

I work bloody hard, as does my other half, and how I would love not to fork out £11,000 a year (my part time salary) on fees, so lucky you lot with excellent state schools. Not everyone has that advantage, particularly in this area of the country. Principles? Well I haven't any when it comes to giving my daughter the best education I can for life.

Yes we do all the culture stuff, in fact we are turning out distinctly 'mumsnet class', what with our National Trust membership, we have even paid off our mortgage this year, so I do feel a bit smug.

However my dd going to a private school, makes not one difference to the school down the road, but will make a huge impact on her life. Sort out the failing schools and behaviour in the classroom and yes of course we would use them and save a whole bunch of money in the process.

Do I get a refund on my Council Tax for not taking a school place?

Maria yes indeed, many traditional middle class jobs will not privide you with a middle class standard of living IYSWIM.

And nor will the jobs in the media and the arts that so many gravitated towards.

I think that's fine if you chose a different lifestyle and new the consequences, but so many of the nouveau pauvre seem a bit confused about it all.

FairyacrosstheMersey, interesting related question: should people who use private instead of public services get some sort of tax rebate to take account of the money they're saving the state? Love the idea, but sadly an 'a la carte' tax system wouldn't work in practice.

TOSN "don't try and make it into a straw man about infertility" nothing could have been further from my mind I was thinking if the elderly whose children have grown up and moved away they really are part of the community, well they certainly a large part of Smalltownsville where I live. As increasingly our population ages they are going to be in the near future the community their needs and actions are going to have the biggest influence, where the minority younger people choose DC's to school is going to be completely irrelevant.

Fairy - I think state schools years ago were run very differently than they are today. Bullying and bad behaviour were more of a problem. And my children go to a prep school. There is also a private school in my town that has a reputation for bullying. It does sound as though your own experiences have coloured how you see state schools. I am the same somewhat. I was bullied at a state high school, moved to a private school and now I would worry about my dds going to the said state school even though it has changed so much in the last 25 years.

TheWord

I had no idea you were northern, I thought you were southern. Nor did I think you would be a big fat northern blonde.

I'm a small fat northern brunette, and people are often perplexed by me, usually wondering how can an ill educated poor person like me, move in the same circles as them.

Lottie, afraid the state schools near us are failing and one in special measures :( not a lot has changed, dd did go into reception, but it was chaotic, she would come home telling us things and we thought it couldn't be happening!

However, when we pulled her out and spoke to the head, she confirmed the kids had run riot - but in a safe way :o

I don't want a tax rebate. I'm happy to pay my taxes, but I would like to think that my taxes and my recently removed CB go towards helping and improving the lot of those right at the bottom of the pile although I doubt it will.

Ah I see - really all the schools near you are in special measures? I have to say that if I was in your shoes I wouldn't really want to send my children there. Where I live, the majority of schools are either good or outstanding.

morethan yup am from oop there .

Though I live down south now.

Am a larger than life blonde. Very loud. Very lively. Very working class . And though I'm not really fat I am very va va voom ...