No difference between state and private schools

[richmal]

Mr. Gove wants anyone walking into a state or private school not to be able to tell the difference. Could they not simply count the number of children in the classroom?

Well indeed, we are already saying twice (I wouldn't say more than twice as neither or us are higher rate tax payers) but it would be galling to pay an extra tax on top of fees seeing as the state couldn't provide a suitable education for my AS son, forcing us to go fee-paying.

The "fairness tax" should be removing charitable status, so that ordinary people do not have to subsidise the independent schooling of the children of the (relatively or absolutely ) rich.

The charitable subsidy is worth very little indeed - the schools would gain more by not being charities and cutting off all their bursaries.

handcream

Actually the last place I worked as a supply teacher litter picking was done by the kids as part of their internal exclusion.

Paying three times/four times/five times - there would always be the option of a state school so your children would experience more of the level playing field that the rest of our children have to. And tbh - when you loom at the difference in average earnings for privately educated children over their lifetime as adults, a 20 or 30k tax on their school fees would be just piss in the wind.

Mini well we thought we had the "option" many years ago of state ed. and as we at the time were keen not to pay school fee (our earnings at the time were insufficient) were enthusiastic to make a go of it. But the reality was that it wasn't a viable option for my DS who sits at the very top end of the intelligence bell curve and were advised by two heads, one at the counties top performing school to send him to a independent school because they were either unable and/or unwilling to meet his needs.
You still haven't expanded on this 'fairness" tax.

No child is more deserving of a privileged education than any other. We all think our children are special and unique and deserving of an education tailored to his or her needs, whatever they happen to be. And I speak as the mother of a child with ASD in a mainstream state school.

Nobody can stop parents buying a place for their child on the comfy end of the uneven playing field that is our education system here in the uk. Doesn't let the government off the hook at looking for ways to make things fairer.

Adults who were privately educated as children haven't earned the privileged education which enables them to clamber over the backs of less lucky people who may well be brighter than they are. I have yet to hear anyone explain to a child - in terms a child can understand - why it's morally acceptable that they should have so much more or less spent on their schooling than someone else.

No one who accepts the rightness of meritocratic systems of society can possibly accept the existence of the sort of divided education system we have now as moral and right.

Mini I strongly believe that every child should have access to a top quality free education regardless of back ground. But what does one do when our state options after extensive searching are unable or unwilling to meet our child's needs and provide that top quality education but we do have the money to pay for an education that clearly does. I've never once said it was fair or even morally right but we felt that we had very few options.

I think that many people are overlooking the fact that there are lots of parents who sacrifice so much in their life to privately educate their kids, they would rather forego quality of life to provide the best education possible, not have holidays, smaller houses etc.
It is not just the privileged who privately educate.

"It is not just the privileged who privately educate."

Yes it is. There are, of course degrees of privilege. But anyon who can come up with enough money to privately educate - even by "making sacrifices"- is privileged.

It is not just the privileged who privately educate
but being able to put aside those funds requires having a level of disposable income far above that of the bulk of the population.

Even the cheapest private school will come in at £12,000 a year including extras
which implies having that amount after paying bills
after paying tax
which with the median adult wage being £18,000 before tax
shows that UK private school fees are such that only the richest 10-15% can even consider them.

Its interesting that when I was a kid,
houses cost 2.5 times the average salary,
day schools cost 1/3 the average salary
boarding school cost 2/3 the average salary
roughly

NOW
Houses cost around 6 times the average salary
day school is 3/4 the average salary
and boarding school 1.5 times the average salary

so where is that money going?

My ds is litter picking on Tuesday during a detention earned for being cheeky to a DT teacher. State school.

Very odd, the views some people have of state schools.........

Just because they are putting the money aside doesn't mean it's easy, private education is still a stretch for a lot of people who do it so talking about imposing extra taxes etc is ridiculous when some can barely afford it but still make that choice and that sacrifice.

minifingers
I went to private school. Should that stop me sending my kids to State school, just because my dad was paying 93% tax on his income in the 1970's?

you clearly have a really poor understanding of world economics if you cannot grasp
a) the top 10% of earners pay around 40% of taxes
b) banning private schools just results in better profits overseas in countries that allow it - hence why UK and US public schools have lots of Chinsese and Russian politicians' children paying lots of fees.

curlew, why was your DS cheeky to a DT teacher? Is the point that you are making that the school is tough on discipline?

No- somebody said that no state school would ever get a child to litter pick as a punishment- I just wanted to show that's not true.

Ah OK, I missed that. My DS (state school) has also been litter picking for owning up to swearing - in Polish .

Happygardening - you say state school 'wasn't a viable option for my DS who sits at the very top end of the intelligence bell curve'. What about similarly intelligent children whose parents can't afford private school? Would it not be a viable option for them either? What do you suggest should happen to them, then?

I find the idea that we pay taxes in order to educate our own children odd, too. I think I pay taxes in order to live in an educated society, as do my friends without children. If I sent my children to private school I wouldn't consider that I was paying twice for their education - I'd be paying once to live in that educated society, and again in order to buy my children a privilege unavailable to most.

I suppose the problem is that more people might want to buy that privilege for their children, but we don't make it particularly easy to do so. Happygardening can do so, but most people cannot.

Generally people are better at making decisions for their own children than the state is (there are of course exceptions).

So it's not necessarily 'you should be grateful to live in an educated society, and enjoy paying the taxes to do so', but rather 'I wish I could give my child that opportunity'.

It's arguably more about the people that can't do that than it is about taxing those nasty rich people who can.

Also of course you don't pay for your own child's education. Even if you pay no taxes at all, your child has the right to the same free education as a billionaire.

What you have is a right to an education for your child, which isn't linked to taxation.

"What about similarly intelligent children whose parents can't afford private school?"

I made this point to the head of the LEA when I moved my DS to his private school. I cam afford it but what about this who can't? The super bright are not catered for at primary level especially in rural areas with tiny schools. We were told by the governors that they had neither the money or the interest to help his as he was the only one in the school and statistically there were unlikely to be others like him coming along in the future. As I said above I've never said it was fair or morally right but we did what most parent would do if they could afford. For those whose parents can't afford it they like many others who for some reason can't fit the state ed box are simply left to rot.

Aga I don't resent paying taxes or ever say I'm paying twice although I would very much resent a fairness tax. What annoys me is that despite paying taxes there are still many children in the state sector who are getting at best a mediocre equation at worst a crap education.

I see private schools as offering a choice in certain circumstances as opposed to a default out of privilege - I think this is probably the view of many if not most..

I have always used the NHS despite having private healthcare via my employer, but when my two sons became critically ill with the same genetic disease and we were told there was a 4 month waiting list for an operation they needed....well.....we went private and were done in 2 weeks. Was private better? Only because it got the job done. Did I feel sorry for the other hundreds of children in the same situation on the 4 month waiting list? Of course and I was livid. But there is not much I could do about it. In fact in a way removing my children from that waiting list hopefully helped 2 children coming after them, if that makes sense.

We sent all our children to the local state schools. We always worked in partnership with the teachers and we felt KS1 was successful. There were things that weren't perfect, but on balance it was a good experience. In KS2 things began to go very wrong for my eldest and unfortunately after over a year we realised the school just wasn't up to the job.

I am 100% sure that most state schools excel at KS2 but that didn't really help me or my children. We didn't have much choice around here (either oversubscribed or equally poor) and I wasn't just going to sit and watch as my eldest daughter did not receive the education she deserves.

Yes I do feel sorry for the other children who are frankly receiving a substandard education and I have spent so much of my time trying to resolve it. All our efforts to try and improve the school were unsuccessful, so we had to bite the bullet and go private in the end.

Private schools are a law unto themselves, if you have a problem you can't report them to a Government body, your only option is to vote with your feet! My experience of non-selective schools has not been good, it's all about how much money they can claw in.

Talkinpeace said:
"Its interesting that when I was a kid,
day schools cost 1/3 the average salary
boarding school cost 2/3 the average salary
NOW
day school is 3/4 the average salary
and boarding school 1.5 times the average salary"

Doesn't this just reflect more unequal incomes than when we were kids?

It also seems that there are more people who can afford private education now.