No difference between state and private schools

[richmal]

Mr. Gove wants anyone walking into a state or private school not to be able to tell the difference. Could they not simply count the number of children in the classroom?

[NigellasDealer]

In the Far East class sizes are huge- 40+ but learning outstrips the West
rote learning you mean. I teach English as a foreign language and asking students from the Far East to work in groups or engage in independent learning, or to question anything, is bloody hard work.
Perhaps that is why paying for a British education is so popular in the Far East!

[josephinebornapart]

You have ime to have very small classes to see any real difference- which comes down to being able to spend 1:1 time with a pupil during the lesson.

In one private school I worked in there were on average 20 in a class ( secondary age) then in my next school- bog standard comp in the mid 80s- there were 35.

I had to be more on my toes to deal with the slightly more pupils who didn't want to be there in the comp, but otherwise it was the same- it came down to my ability to control the class.

[merrymouse]

I think the thing about class sizes comes from parental perception that e.g the teacher doesn't have time to hear all the children reading, the teacher has multiple classes and doesn't know each child and there isn't sufficient support for children on either end of the abilities scale. Also, if performance improves in a class of 24, that would be smaller than the normal max of 30.

[josephinebornapart]

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding and myths about class sizes/ performance/achievement.

In some subjects - eg maths- larger classes as found in China etc work really well.

I think it has been said that optimal class size is around 12. This is nothing to do with teacher input or discipline, but about how pupils cannot 'hide' and be passive or shy learners- smaller classes sometimes give shy children the confidence to speak up and engage with their peers and teacher more.

It's not about how the teacher delivers the lesson but more about children being actively engaged because they are more in the spotlight.

[josephinebornapart]

merry- it' s not true that teachers don't know each child.

I used to teach 8 classes over a week with 30-35 children in each and I knew all of them very well.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Interesting research on class size
umrefjournal.um.edu.my/filebank/published_article/5026/3Watson%20et%20al.pdf

This suggests (very broadly) that smaller class sizes help because they enable a different style of teaching.

[josephinebornapart]

This is the most relevant part of the conclusion.


Perhaps the most significant outcome of this review is that it positions the relationship between class size reduction and student academic performance as dependent on pedagogy. Specifically, smaller classes do not achieve their expected performance outcomes if they are not accompanied by pedagogical changes that facilitate a more student-centred focus on teaching and learning. Teachers must be provided with learning opportunities that enable them to understand and use pedagogies
that promote increased academic performance in small classes (Hattie, 2009). This might include a more differentiated learning environment that accommodates a diversity of student interests and ...


what is interesting is that at the start of this paper, they discuss the fact that many people come up with the 'common sense' idea that smaller classer= greater achievement, and are upset when /if research shows otherwise- so in other words some people already have an opinion which they try to have validated by research, rather than being open-minded.

[merrymouse]

josephine I am talking about general perceptions of all teachers, not individuals. Obviously teachers vary.

[happygardening]

Perhaps its partly expectation. I saw an interesting interview with an Etonian he felt under pressure to make to most of the education on offer not just achieving the obligatory the A*'s but also participate in lots of activities the school offer; take full advantage of everything. His parents weren't openly applying any pressure or even covertly as far as I could see, although of course many are doing both, but he was aware that they were stumping up £34 000+ a year and that he felt that he had to repay this by doing well i.e academically, participating in lots of activities etc. otherwise he'd let them down. Before an Eton fan comes on this is not a criticism of it in particular and he wasn't criticising the school. It was a thoughtful honest interview and for parents like me with children at these kinds of school very thought provoking.

[guishagirly]

Our prep school must be truly awful. There are 12 in a class yet the teachers (every subject) cant discipline one naughty child and they dont differentiate the work for children of different abilities, as they do in state schools.

[wordfactory]

chaz you may have something there.

I have twins in different schools and can see how very very different the teaching styles are. Chalk and cheese really.

[craggyhollow]

Dd1 was watching something on TV about truanting and parents that didn't seem to care

She said if they had to pay for it they'd care

Fair point

[Gini99]

Amber, thanks for posting the OECD stuff. I agree horrible slides! Do you know where the raw data comes from because it is not referenced (the slides seem to be from 2007?). There's not enough there to give you any real ability to compare that data.

So it looks like for the UK there is a huge observed performance difference if you go to a private school and a tiny smudge of pink that seems to indicate a very slight (almost imperceptible?) advantage to state once you 'account for' socio-economic background. for the OECD as a whole it looks like a moderate observed advantage for private schools and no difference once controlled.

The problem is that there is nothing to tell you what 'accounting for' socio-economic background means so without that it's pretty difficult to assess the results. Also the data is really badly sorted so it's not clear whether they have included the second category (Govt Dependent Private) as private or public (it sounds like both?!). also there is nothing to tell you what role private schools play in each country. E.g. here they tend to be socially and academically selective but what about e.g. Luxembourg, Finland, Denmark and the Czech Republic where there seem to be virtually no 'Govt independent private' school and private schools seem to be worse on both counts. What role do the tiny number of private schools play there? E.g. if they are primarily religious institutions or places for people with extreme learning difficulties then the private system may be playing a very different role from the UK and you can't extrapolate across.

The slide itself looks confusing and raises far more questions than it answers but perhaps the underlying data would be more illuminating….

[Bonsoir]

I'm not convinced that class size is the be all and end all. My DD, who is 9, is in a class of 28 but that is the maximum grouping she is ever in: for a large part of her time at school, she is in smaller groups (21 for English, 9 for Spanish, 14 for IT etc). Apart from Spanish, where the DC make cracking progress (native speaker teacher only speaks Spanish and all DCs are bilingual high achievers to begin with) I cannot say that I think there is a discernible difference to learning from one group to another. It's the quality of the teaching that really matters.

[TamerB]

I would say the difference is smaller classes but the government will never admit it! They can't afford it, so they will be all out to prove that size doesn't matter.

[Bonsoir]

At my DD's school there are five parallel classes in a year group. One class is always very small (about 14-16). No-one wants their child to be in that class.

[TalkinPeace]

Tamer
There is absolutely no evidence that smaller classes give better teaching.

Particularly at Secondary, a cohort set sorted into classes of 24 - 30 :
so a gang of kids of similar ability firing off each other managed by a motivated teacher
will be able to push and stretch far better that a little group where nobody is challenged or taken out of their comfort zone.

Private schools tend to have smaller classes : that is economics, not teaching choice.

Either a private boarding school offers stuff all A level choices, or it provides lots of subjects and hires the teachers (and charges the relevant fees).

In a state school or college, the groups are bigger, but the setting still tight, so kids reach their potential.

Eastern methods of rote learning are great for manufacturing iphones, crap for designing them (guess where the real money is)

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Talkin
There is some evidence that smaller classes lead to a different style of teaching which is more active learning. See the link to the meta analysis of research I posted earlier.

[whendidyoulast]

I don't think it's true that there is no research to support smaller class sizes, it's just misreported.

I'm pretty sure that what the research actually says is there is little difference between large and larger questions such there is no benefit in reducing classes from say 30 to 28 or 28 to 26 and therefore this would not be economically justifiable in the state sector.

HOWEVER, as I understand it, there is proven advantage to classes below 20 and, as this would never happen in the state sector, it is simply ignored.

[whendidyoulast]

Large and Larger classes that should say. So there is little difference between a class of 28 and 30 but there IS a big difference between a class of 30 and 20 or 18.

[whendidyoulast]

The assumption that setting helps is also wrong.

Setting MAY help a few at the top but nobody else so the disadvantages as a whole outweigh the advantages.

[TalkinPeace]

Whendidyoulast
^The assumption that setting helps is also wrong.
Setting MAY help a few at the top but nobody else so the disadvantages as a whole outweigh the advantages.^

What do you mean?

Do you think that middle ability children suffer because they are in a set that runs at the correct speed for them?
Or that lower ability children are in a class with appropriate support for them?
Or that every child does not benefit from being taught with children of similar ability so that the class is at the correct level for them?

The children at the top of set two often do as well, if not better, than the children at the bottom of set one (there is definite overlap in a big school) - but the classes are pitched at levels to suit each child.
How can that only benefit the top?

And the lower level children most definitely benefit by not being ignored in a mixed ability GCSE maths class.

[whendidyoulast]

Talkin, the actual FACTS are conveniently ignored because people assume that setting works and it's convenient to ignore the evidence for the likes of Gove who like hierarchies and traditional ways of doing things and people knowing their place rather than evidence.

For example:

www.theguardian.com/education/2012/feb/09/dividing-pupils-ability-entrench-disadvantage

[whendidyoulast]

Education and results is much more complicated than just putting the appropriate facts into kids.

It's about attitude and motivation and peer influence and teacher expectations.

I know it's not an argument I'm ever going to win in my own school (even though I have researched value added by set over 3 years and the results tell me that it decreases as you go down sets).

[whendidyoulast]

And this:

www.ioe.ac.uk/newsEvents/85068.html

Bottom sets are disproportionately full of summer born kids and boys and black kids and working class kids. Even at 16.