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SW London girls' schools 11+ thread 2014

77 replies

MinesACuppa · 06/01/2014 19:35

Who else?

OP posts:
beginnings · 10/01/2014 22:25

Can I just pop onto this thread to say that I'm an Old Dolphin and in my day we didn't get cuddly toys at the exam!! I was desperate to go there and yes, it would have mocked me if I had not got in.

Also, for those who are worried about travel distances and social lives, in my day at G&L they grouped girls into form groups based on where they lived so your initial social group was relatively local to you and you could travel together. Not sure if they still do that. They used to send out the form lists prior to the start of the school year.

My DDs are 20 months and 16 weeks so I'll leave this thread now and come back in a few years!

Eastpoint · 11/01/2014 05:42

G&L, Latymer & LEH still group girls by area/school bus route in LEH's case. SPGS try to ensure there is someone from your area in your teaching group whilst trying to split previous classmates (difficult with ex Bute girls as there are so many). A few girls come via Clapham Junction Olympia on the overground to SPGS, this would work even better for St James as it is v close to Olympia. I agree that the journey from Olympia to G&L would be too long although I' expect girls would hop on the bus rather than walk.

Needmoresleep · 11/01/2014 09:58

First flippantly, Dolphins are an endangers species. There is too much scope for real cruelty in disappointed households across west London.

Reliving our own 11+ nightmare, with a dyslexic child who would have performed close to the top of the cohort in maths and near the bottom in English, a few observations:

  1. We studied TfLs journey planner closely, trying journeys at different times of day and at 10 minute intervals to judge frequency. We also looked at safety. Walking on your own from G&L to Olympia after a play rehearsal would be grim. LU does better if you are close to a tube, even if the journey is a bit longer, as it is opposite Ravenscourt Park. Being able to get home safely when leaving late is important, unless you are happy playing taxi service for the next 7 years to a girl who is making the most of the opportunities available.
  1. Sorting girls geographically in Yr 7 sounds a great idea - unless you are an outlier. Then you might find yourself in a class with a load of Richmond girls who went to the same schools, take part in the same out of school activities, and who hang out together at the weekends. Ie in a worse position than if the classes had been completely mixed. Personal view, but it also seems encourage a divide between girls living east and west of the school, exacerbated by the fact that those living east will probably have been to naice Chelsea and Kensington prep schools, whilst those to the West may well have been at nice state primaries in Richmond, Ealing, Chiswick, Teddington etc, with each group socialising locally. It's not just journey time. There are other advantages in choosing a local school, to be weighed against a more attractive but more distant school.
  1. Eleven is quite early to test kids. Some diligent and focused girls who were were top of their year group at Primary fade as they struggle with more complex maths and science. Others, who perhaps would have little to say at an 11+ interview, come into their own later on. Again a personal view I see advantage in being part of a reasonably mixed cohort. The expectations on pupils at very selective schools can be fierce and what is perceived as failure can lack perspective. (Eg not getting a full set of A*s at GCSEs.) A good school with a more mixed intake will be careful to lay emphasis on non academic achievements. So one child is academic, another is sporty, another is arty. So it becomes OK not to be good at everything as long as you do your best and engage fully. Like real life?

Good luck to everyone and to your daughters.

ClaraMaugham · 11/01/2014 10:44

Needmoresleep, I agree with most of what you say. One of the reasons for sending children to school away from the immediate vicinity, in my opinion, is that they can meet and mix with those from other areas. However I do think there's a tendency to stick with people who seem familiar, and certainly all the friends I kept from school were the ones I travelled with - even if they weren't in my class.

On your third point I also agree. The problem there is finding such a school, especially at the moment. I don't know if it's just parental hysteria, but it seems that even the schools that used to be considered safer bets are now far from a sure thing (according to what I've heard), and accessibility is also an issue. I love the idea of a more inclusive, gentler yet still really good girls' school, but sadly there just doesn't seem to be anywhere like that close enough for DD to get to.

Shootingatpigeons · 11/01/2014 11:09

Good points Needmore . In particular SPGS was the only school that the year before last, when many DCs around the London indies (and Wycombe Abbeys etc.) were upset the they didn't get the predicted A* at GCSE as a result of grade deflation, made every girl who didn't, retake. From the offers it is clear that unis know exactly what went on. In the end a B at GCSE hasn't stopped the top unis making offers for the subject as many feared. So it is hard to understand why they felt it necessary to add that pressure. Other schools encouraged their pupils to draw a line as marking was in any case so inconsistent that messing with grade boundaries was just further undermining the credibility of the exams, something unis are well aware of. In fact I would say the school's responses to that situation, those that acknowledged the situation and responded in support of pupils, those that denied it had happened, and then SPGS's response, says a lot about them.

irisha · 11/01/2014 12:54

Needmoresleep, thank you so much for your perspectives. Such a useful post!

One more week of exams, then we can breathe out (temporarily!) before the stress of the interviews (hopefully) starts.

Needmoresleep · 11/01/2014 13:06

I might have been a bit clearer. It is not necessarily the school who promotes these expectations. Pupils themselves pick up that they are at what is perceived as the most academic school and therefore start to assume that they need to achieve stellar results. Some obviously thrive in this environment, however for others it can mean a long hard 7 year slog through heaps of homework when they might be doing some more interesting things, or a loss of self esteem and confidence when actually in any other context they are doing very well. When everyone around you is getting A*s, and you find chemistry tricky, it can seem as if you are not good enough. Or after working really hard and getting the grades, you don't get the Oxbridge offer your friends have got, when if you were elsewhere you would be delighted with an offer of Bristol or Durham.

SPGS have a reputation for turning down some very very clever girls, who might have been assumed to walk in. I suspect/hope this is because SPGS recognises that pupils need to be quite resilient. DD applied to five and got two, the two we felt would suit her best, and which she felt most comfortable in. I hope this reflects the schools' understanding of which children will do best within their specific cultures, rather than just luck.

bickie · 12/01/2014 10:15

Dd did G&L and was pretty upbeat about it too. Mind you - she has been upbeat about papers where she has sunk, and depressed about papers where she has done well - so who knows. Just to torture myself - did anyone hear from a reliable source how many sat G&L? My DD was told by a senior showing her around it was 500 whereas last year was 1000. Seems strange if that is true?

ClaraMaugham · 12/01/2014 15:11

It looked like hundreds of parents at pick up but I don't have any numbers. I wanted to ask someone but didn't get the chance - would seem very odd if they're actually down from last year though. My initial relief after the exam has now turned to pessimism which is probably a safer mindset really!

Eastpoint · 12/01/2014 17:51

ClaraMaugham, did you look at St James, which is near Olympia - that is a gentle inclusive school which nonetheless gets good results, sending girls to a wide range of universities. It is part of the same consortium as Godolphin, if you have a horrible time in a few weeks it might be worth contacting them. It is smaller with about 48 girls a year.

Schmedz · 12/01/2014 20:21

St James does seem lovely, but only serves vegetarian food and has an interesting approach with meditation at the beginning and end of the day. Sensible to encourage girls to take time to stop and breathe and not rush around all the time, but I imagine the ethos would not be to everyone's taste or personal philosophy...

OddSins · 12/01/2014 22:16

Needmoresleep I don't know if you knew this instinctively or are aware of recent research but your comment on resilience is pertinent.

There is emerging research that resilience is just as important as emotional intelligence on working-life success. It is a trait that I have not consciously considered when appraising candidates at interview (I am referring to adult employment here) and surely virtually impossible to consider in our DCs when a school interview them. But as you say possibly very important.

DD2 is very resilient in a funny sort of way but that wouldn't come across in a short interview, as it has taken me 10+ years to recognise it!

Needmoresleep · 15/01/2014 08:49

Oddsins, I don't know much at all. I picked up a little about the importance of resilience as a characteristic to ensure safe teenage years, and quite a lot chimed with my own feelings, based on too long in London's private school environment. .

I was recently talking to an American mom who said she was thinking of moving from Central/West London to North London because even as an East Coast American she was finding the pressure and competitive parenting too much. I think it was Year 3 when my daughter announced that one of her school friends had tutors on both Saturday and Sunday. (She therefore wanted one as well, though had no idea what a tutor was.) My son aged 15 was surprised that one of his friends, at one of London's uber-selective schools, could not join them at weekends because he was regularly being tutored in three different subjects. Part of the issue seems to be the need for Ivy League applicants to present a raft of music, sports and leadership achievements as well as tip top academics. The weekend schedules of some of these kids are extra-ordinary and it seems to start at about the age of nine.

We encouraged dyslexic DD with extra-curricular interests to help develop her self-esteem, and by and large it has worked. However in the process she has become aware of other kids who are not only all-singing, all-dancing (literally) but firing on all cylinders academically. Some are really impressive, very nice, and should go on to wow both Universities and employers, but I worry about others who are having to work very hard to maintain it all. (Correction: I worry that my children will pick up these unrealistic aspirations/standards and not realise you don't need to be good at everything, and that "good enough" is OK as long as you tried hard and engaged.)

I am talking about a minority, but snippets of conversations with teachers suggests there is concern about anxiety levels amongst some of their cohort. This won't be new. Anorexia and self harming existed in my academically relaxed all-girls school. And talking to friends it seems that resilience, or perhaps coping skills, is now firmly on the agenda at several of the schools considered in this thread.

I guess what I was trying to contribute five years after our own 11+ hell is that first there is an element of lottery, and second the schools have lots of experience in identifying who will thrive. I remember a stunningly clever girl of my son's age not getting into SPGS, and her parents, who had not been in the UK that long, being very disappointed. She went to another of West London's first rate girl's schools and I used to occasionally see her with a lovely group of friends. I have no doubt academically she would have been fine, indeed would excelled at SPGS. I also suspect when taken in the round the other school was better for her.

There seems to be a general confusion about results and education. Teenage years are tricky. The right school is the one which works for your child. It is hard to tell which school will look after the 17 year old who has a crisis of confidence, or the 15 year old who decides that nothing their parents have to say is relevant. And which will help them develop the skills and perspective that will help them cope when things go wrong. Part of it is considering what feels right. What school excites your child and will make them want to engage? Then leave it to the school selection process. As long as you are reasonably flexible and realistic, you will almost certainly get a school you are happy with. A small group may then move at sixth form but this is often the lure of boys or for a larger sixth form with more choice, rather than because they are unhappy. There is also a small minority who don't settle, but a friend who went through this found that the schools themselves were open to this and worked together to help her daughter to have a successful fresh start.

Quite an essay. Sorry. Perhaps it is simply that I am too lazy to stand over my children as they do their homework. Plus I hate the fact at even now there are mothers who want to compare their child's marks in internal tests with mine and others. (I didn't even know she had taken the test...and was pleased that she is at a school where they discourage kids from competing against each other.) Threads like these must highlight to others on MN what a different country London has become. And not just MN. Earlier this week the Evening Standard even had a two page spread on the extra-ordinary growth of consultancies designed to help parents through the indie 11+ process. Trouble is that it is what it is and so good luck to all.

Analou37 · 15/01/2014 18:37

Does anyone know how many girls get to interview stage at LEH vs the number of places offered?

OddSins · 15/01/2014 21:26

Needmoresleep
Have really appreciated your reply as perspective is so important. Resilience is such an interesting topic. I cannot remember where this research came from, but it was from an Ivy League university and reported in a UK newspaper (?recent book on the topic).

Essentially, success they claimed was from that ability to bounce back from lifes 'slings and arrows'. I think we all know this instinctively but reading the article was a bit of an electric bulb moment for me.

In your working life, you see colleagues flounder under the stress of life / office politics / whatever. Such a selective quality as resilience is like a psychological suit of armour that appears to let your other traits flourish. It is different subtly from confidence but perhaps not self-esteem in the sense that even if you are wrong, have been wrong, hard done to etc, you dust yourself down and push on.

For our children, it is a very unclear characteristic as they are so immature, and how admissions teachers at selective schools incorporate this at interview I have no idea. I doubt the issue of resilience is consciously considered at interviews but more a feel does this child fit in to our culture and learning ethos.

Elibean · 16/01/2014 16:12

Needmoresleep hurrah for commonsense and groundedness! I feel cheered, reading your post - the voice of sanity.

Resilience is definitely up there on my wish list for my dds.

Schmedz · 16/01/2014 21:43

Needmoresleep - well said. You are not alone!!

The entire 11+ process has become a huge marketing and moneymaking opportunity for rather a lot of companies and frequently -unscrupulous not-particularly-well-qualified tutors-- individuals.

What is the saddest aspect is the girls who are made to feel stupid or worthless for not 'passing' and the parents who somehow feel it is a reflection on their own personal worth if their child IS accepted into one of the 'top' schools.

Rant over. I hope all applicants end up at a school in which they are happy.

Shootingatpigeons · 17/01/2014 08:49

Schmedz Absolutely. Parents give their children such narrow targets for success, by putting them through intensive tutoring etc. to get to schools that in reality are separated from the rest just by being able to be more selective and get pupils who outperform others by a few marks in exams. They are all good schools that enable DCs to get good grades and to good unis, we are spoilt for choice around here. In the end once you have been through this process you realise that generally if prepared to a reasonable level, which most private preps do more than adequately and from a state can be done with a couple of terms tutoring in what has not been covered in the curriculum, children get to the school that is right for their level of ability and personality. The rest has nothing to do with the requirements of the exams and everything to do with parental anxiety, competitiveness or vicarious ambition. Then when your DCs are at these schools you get to experience the fallout, the low self esteem that leads to attention seeking behaviour, exclusive behaviour to build up their own self esteem etc. It is definitely a particular South West London school phenomenon, and the more selective the school the more you encounter it.

ClaraMaugham · 17/01/2014 09:40

This is all very interesting stuff. Difficult to comment impartially as I'm right in the middle of it, but what you're all saying does ring true. What I wasn't prepared for when I set out on this private school journey was the way that pressure to achieve on all fronts continues even once the children have got into their school of choice. I've been wondering if it served any purpose other than parental ambition, and Needmoresleep's idea that it's to do with American universities is the first logical theory I've heard. Otherwise what does it achieve other than endlessly pressured children and a risk of early burn out?

MinesACuppa · 17/01/2014 10:57

I for one am sad that my 10 year old has had to slog so hard for these exams, at a point where she should be enjoying her childhood. I went to some very selective schools but had none of this cramming or tutoring Sad
And it's such a young age to be having to face possible rejection and to have to keep going to school amidst others who have offers from every school they applied to.
Dd has been very stoical and mature about it but I do worry about the long term effect it will have on her. Here's hoping she gets into exactly the right school for her, and I hope the same for all your dc.

OP posts:
ClaraMaugham · 17/01/2014 11:24

Thanks MinesaCuppa - your DD sounds like she's got a great attitude and I'm sure she'll do well. It's the most horrible part of the whole horrible process, and I guess we need to try and keep in mind why we started it in the first place.

Shootingatpigeons · 17/01/2014 12:05

clara I do think that is a Central London phenomenon, and possibly global, and particularly at SPGS because it has the "name". At the schools further out after all the fuss at 11 it all settles down and everyone relaxes, very little additional tutoring, I have never known anyone. A few competitive parents who tout their DCs around every high performing swim club, netball club, etc going to get them in national squads but very much in the minority, in fact the ones who discover a talent for eg rowing they didn't know they had and go on to great success outnumber them ( and then they get talent scouted by Ivy League even if not the brightest Wink ) but yes to what you say about hating putting your child's self esteem up for a possible battering, the fact you feel that way suggests your DD will be fine.

I am a little jaded because my DD2 followed her clever sister to one of the most selective schools, mainly to prove she could, sibling rivalry. In my heart I felt a school not so high in the tables felt right for her. I even had a dream the night before we put in the acceptance slip that the other school was set in Elysium fields with angelic sixth formers welcoming her in!!!!! She encountered there a perfect storm of those children with damaged self esteem, not just the result of competitive parents, some very self indulgent parental behaviour. Any school can get a difficult cohort like this, neither parents or school can control where these characters end up, indeed one of them had switched from another school, where parents had sent in letters asking that their DCs not be with them, at the last minute , and they can subvert the norms at any school. She is now at the other school for sixth form and she couldn't be happier or doing better academically. When she describes the goings on at the other school her classmates hug her and say " oh don't get upset, you are out of there now" Grin

So I feel very strongly that the "best" school is the one that feels right for your child and that they get into, and it feels a little Hmm when parents build up this 11+ process and the results based league tables as such a big thing, as if once in it will all be sorted, when actually they are not an end but a beginning.

Shootingatpigeons · 17/01/2014 12:17

By the way Analou LEH interview quite a high proportion. They use the entrance exam results to filter out those that don't demonstrate the minimum level of ability that they feel will enable them to thrive at the school, but that level is fairly low since they use Year 7 to consolidate and enable those untutored state school pupils to catch up, which they do very quickly. I think they differ from SPGS in this in that they expect all pupils to be in a position to hit the ground running (or at least they did, and had a correspondingly low proportion of pupils getting in from state schools, one would hope they have realised by now that means they miss out on some bright pupils)

I don't think they have a hard and fast proportion though. Only one girl out of 11 applying from my DDs mixed ability prep didn't get an interview (though they were sort of already selected in the sense they were the ones the school advised stood a good chance). It is one disadvantage of applying from a state or overseas (as we did for DD1) school that you don't get the advantage of that experience

Needmoresleep · 17/01/2014 12:50

And to stress, in my experience the ultra-competitiveness belongs to a small minority. Most people in West London are pretty sane - though I am not sure whether the rest of the country would agree.

For me part of the problem is that in order to work out a path through, eg to identify the one aspirational, two realistic and one fall back school, which will suit your child you inevitably turn to playground gossip, or indeed Mumsnet, on top of the schools own marketing. Its slightly easier if your child is already at a prep or a state primary with a strong track record of sending children to these schools. Unfortunately those most likely to have that information are those who have put the most research in, and thus most likely to be ahead of the game in tutoring etc.

Another problem, though at times an advantage, is the astonishing multi-national nature of these schools' west London catchments. Everyone brings something to the party, and my own DC, despite being born and schooled within a mile or two of where their grandfather was born and schooled, have a much more international outlook and greater aspirations that they might have done had they been raised elsewhere. Some of their friend's parents (Russian, American, Lebanese, Chinese, Italian etc) confirm they are staying in London primarily for the education.

However there are disadvantages when other people's priorities and values clash with those you want for your children. In our shabby middle class way we want our children to believe in society and accept that success brings responsibility, which does not always line up with some of the winner takes all approaches elsewhere. As above I hate being quizzed about my daughter's exams marks by the mother desperate to work out where her child stands, in a school keen to discourage this sort of overt competition. For me education, including resilience and roundedness should take priority over just grades. Success surely is about becoming a good, emotionally intelligent adult, not just about earning more than everyone else.

I hate also the overbearing sense of entitlement that some, say mega-successful financiers and their wives, seem to possess. It is as if as Schmetz suggests, they see their children's achievements reflecting upon their own. They can also appear to expect that their wealth should guarantee them the best of everything. So if you run some City institution your child must also be a top dog and go to SPGS. Some is overt, but there is also a certain joy in spotting the well hidden surprise when one of these uber-successful people realises that your child goes to a school they are aspiring to even though you are just very ordinary Brit, who only just merits a basic level of acknowledgement.

I liked the expat banker's wife who was surprised to discover that in her DD's year at SPGS there were some DC who had been to state primaries, and who had made it without paying all those fees and without agonising over which of several very similar central London preps gave her DD the best chance of getting in. I liked it less when my DD, aged 13 was approached by another girl in my hearing and asked how she had done in the Junior maths challenge and when DD replied "Gold" the other girl said "How come, you only go to such and such school, and that is not supposed to be as academic as .." and she went on to list some of the other alternatives. God knows what happens when these kids leave their rarified Chelsea lives. I assume that Ivy League offers a better chance of remaining in the bubble than even Oxford.

That said and as DC move towards tertiary education, it is becoming clear that maths geeks are set to inherit the world. Places at Cambridge, LSE, Imperial, and Warwick for subjects like engineering or economics are now dependent on serious maths qualifications. Often Step 2, rather than just A*. So perhaps all that Kumon and tutoring was the way forward, and DC will need to retrain as plumbers to service the homes of the new Masters of the Universe.

Elibean · 17/01/2014 16:54

I wouldn't mind the re-training as plumbers, if my kids were happy. But I do mind the way the UK, in particular, fails to value the plumbers and engineers (and teachers and nurses) in the same way as, say, Germany values engineers and the USA values nurses. Generally speaking.

Time we reassessed our priorities!