Grammar Schools : the debate is about what happens NOW

[TalkinPeace]

In the 20 years after WW2, when the baby boomers were kids, grammar schools did amazing things for social mobility.

But then, self preservation kicked back in
and since 1970, selective state schools have become progressively less inclusive
to the extent today where the (grammar school educated head of OFSTED) says
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25386784

the death knell has been rung
as it has for DB pensions (another great Baby Boomer nest lining idea)

so lets bite the bullet and put equal resources into all schools and reduce the carbon footprint of the grammar school madness.

This is nothing new but I'll say it anyway. Grammar schools represent aspiration. They don't necessarily have better teachers or better resources but there is inherent aspiration. Sure there are lots of kids at comps that are aspirational but equally there are lots that aren't and never the twain shall meet (the great top sets/bottom sets divide).

If we are going to get rid of Grammars then let's make the Comp's sets mixed ability.

Christ, now grammars are great mainly because they represent aspiration? So we keep all the aspiration in one building and leave the rest to.... not aspire?

I mean, what?

ps. top sets and bottom sets, and indeed middle sets, do meet. Sometimes even without any kicking in of heads!

Let's not.

Nit I'm not saying that only people with direct expoerience should have a view.

I'm just saying that those who have no direct experience should at least bloody well listen to those that do. Not just dismiss everything they say as 'thick' or 'hilarious' or whatever.

If you don't have SEN (as both met and I do) and you don't have DC with SEN (as met does), then why would you be so dismissive?

Similarly, if you're ideal is to help the disadvanataged gain traction through education, why wouldn't you listen to people who have direct expereince of it? Why would you assume you know better?

Nit, they don't meet in my local Comp. There is a vertical tutoring system and only 3 lessons per day so they don't even pass each other in the corridor much.

And yes curlew met and I have both said we think the Kent system sounds crap.

Why? Because we have actually listened to your direct expereince.

Wow. Long thread.

Has anyone mentioned the idea of making all schools better so no one would care which school their kids went to because they are all good? A bit utopian isn't it, but I like it as a starting point.

In order of magnitude, you'd have to address the state comps first, then faith schools. Grammar schools and private schools would be the last group to bother with, but they seem to be the ones that upset people the most.

If all state schools were good enough, then I wouldn't care about selective schools existing or not.

As for social mobility, I think the persistence of wealth and the motivation of parents will always far outweigh schooling. You could ban all faith schools, grammars and private schools and the rich will remain rich and only those with well motivated supported families will go from poor to rich.

Agree completely muswellhilldad. You summed it up nicely fir me.

Yes MuswellHillDad, that has been repeated quite a few times

Everyone's assuming he or she knows better, Word - that's sort of implicit in having an opinion! What's yours, on how the disadvantaged gain traction?

I don't see all this listening and adapting and respecting being recommended when people tell me what comprehensive schools are like and what they're not like!

Anyhow - I'm not in this specific SEN argument so shall leave it.

Pickled - is the vertical tutoring the same as sets? I've not heard of that - I know a few schools who register in vertical groups, but I haven't heard of actual teaching taking place in set vertical groups before. Three lessons a day sounds a bit mad, though!

Why is the Kent system so much worse than the situation in NI? Anything to do with the number of private schools or faith schools there? What are the percentages of the different types of schools in Kent (Comps/Faith/Grammar/Independent)?

Well, 0% comprehensive for a start, I would assume!

Most people do not want to change from a good school to mediocre.
Although theoretically the comprehensive system can be excellent for most ability children ( except perhaps both ends of the spectrum), the patchy provision of education system means that people have little faith that in practice abolishing grammars will improve standards, however fair or unfair the system may seem to those who are in second moderns.

That would be a better point if standards were higher in selective areas though!

Nit, no teaching takes place in vertical tutor groups. It just means that instead of all the pupils in any one year group registering (and having tutor time) in mixed ability peer groups, the peer group is fragmented.

I think it is way of entrenching the segregation of ability sets. So those in set 5 really have no idea what those in set 1 are up to and vice versa.

Oh I see... yeah, I suppose that vertical registering, whilst I understand the rationale for it in many ways, could have that effect.

I thought you meant they had their lessons in mixed year groups though, and was prepared to be a bit astounded!

let's make the Comp's sets mixed ability

I have had experience of mixed ability in KS2 at a local primary. It was a complete disaster for my children. I am sure that a fantastic, inspirational teacher can do wonders in any setting, but it really does not lend itself to differentiating effectively, especially for a weaker teacher.

Blueberrypots, so let's train teachers to do it well. I work with teachers in Zambia who are implementing the best of education research into their classrooms to great effect, including mixed ability teaching.

I agree pickledsiblings, I myself was educated in a mixed ability setting and it was very well delivered and highly effective. I just have a bad experience of it in this country.

Maybe the idea of leaving children of mixed ability to work in groups with minimal supervision and their backs to the teachers isn't that effective when you have 35 children to one class. We also had that number of children but to be fair we were sat in rows facing the teacher.

Not saying that's a solution but just my experience.

God no mixed ability. I've had experience of this from opposite ends of the spectrum and it's soul destroying for both very bright and struggling children

Having children divided into sets according to ability within the same building is a common sense approach that has been used by private and state schools successfully for many years
on condition
the sets are flexible and reflect current ability - so kids get moved up and down and are not in the same set for all subjects.

Where the sets are in different school, that is not possible.

The way pickledsiblings school operates sounds horrific to me because it does not encourage children to understand those of differing learning capacity and styles and stops the cohort group getting to know each other.
DH has not been there - I'd be interested to know what he thought if he ever does
(he's not an inspector by the way so has no interest in reading the kids work, but he does hang around in corridors and staff rooms and hears lots of the gossip and vibe)

I'm desperate to know how their recent Ofsted has gone Talkin. Do you have to wait for the report to be released? Why does it take so long…

Is anyone seriously suggesting mixed ability teaching isn all subjects? I thought pickledsiblings was being ironic.....

It was me who wants a smallish senior school.

The local in school is now huge 3000+kids I think and heard bigger its got its declined where as used to be good and still lives off its good reputation.

I used redland green as example as its pretty extrem it was set up in very wealthy area where there are several independent schools.
its catchement is tiny distance varies from 700m to 1.27km depending on year,

It was oversubscribed before it was even open.
Houses were pricy before it opened and have sot up even more.

www.redlandpeople.co.uk/news/Redland-Green-Produces-82-Disappointed-Families/story-4552368-detail/story.html

it does not help nearby area that has no senior school.

its totally mad and example of how bristol segregated by faith or wealth.

So reason why I think selection by ability not parents wealth or faith be fairer!

choosing school in bristol like pissig in wind.

if not of faith or in stupidly expensive cathements then its large acadedemy fair banded and random allocation so no one really feels sure where they will get.

bristol wont provide more place as empty seats in the sink schools most of ow are academies.

scools are segrated in racial, socio and eceonmic mixes and redland green predominatly middleclass/wealthy.

I know catholics who dident get into rc school as they literally take kids from other las that have no fath senior ie north somerset, south glos.

Bristol cathedral and colston girls have sibling link which mean after few years less families get the opportunity becomes a very small pool of lucky buggers really.

I went to look at bristol free primary.
30places all over the city.
then its random allocation.
been open a year 150applications last year.

It allows then sibling link younger siblings and gives them admission into high sucessful senior academy ex indepedent which means ion few years time once primary been open a while and 60 intake then lot of people will get in through sibling link and be less places for non siblings.

we have new all through steiner academy opening next year

But in reality most bristolains dont have much choice.

To get the coe one need to go church more hard with small toddler and husband who works a lot, plus chucrch distance away.

independent schools senior looking at 11k year maybe with one child cheaper than buyiing in good area.

some default to independents for primary as thats cheaper 1500-3k a term so appreciate cheaper than london/south east day schools.

the city oly has one boys school fee paying.
2girls schools fee paying
1used to to be feepaying now lottory academy.

I have girls and boys and not sure whats best.

i dont want to move to thornbury or wooten under edge most people like bristol.

Least in grammer you have something to work towards ok u still might not get in but feels like opportunity.
Some commute bristol to grammers in gloucester/chelttenham.

Im not even dire if eldest grammar type shes struggled with school could just be late bloomer but shes middle to lower co-hort ability at the moment. But wouldet deny other bright kids in city opportunity.

*stop state funding of any segregated school
and get on with getting the best out of all kids

• even those with fuckwit parents.*

Amen to that!