Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

Original poster

Grammar Schools : the debate is about what happens NOW

519 replies

TalkinPeace · 15/12/2013 16:09

In the 20 years after WW2, when the baby boomers were kids, grammar schools did amazing things for social mobility.

But then, self preservation kicked back in
and since 1970, selective state schools have become progressively less inclusive
to the extent today where the (grammar school educated head of OFSTED) says
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25386784

the death knell has been rung
as it has for DB pensions (another great Baby Boomer nest lining idea)

so lets bite the bullet and put equal resources into all schools and reduce the carbon footprint of the grammar school madness.

OP posts:
Metebelis3 · 18/12/2013 21:19

Curlew - seeing as Talkin has apologised I think you should too. What Talkin said was outrageous, not what I said. What you have said is outrageous too - as is so often the case. To say that mention of school size makes you laugh when it was SPECIFICALLY mentioned in relation to disability is horrendous. And while I've accepted Talkin's apology that doesn't mean that what she said wasn't outrageous - I just accept that she didn't mean to say what she said.

If YOU knew what my DD1 had gone through in the last year you would hang your head in shame. If you were capable of feeling shame. But no - you'd probably just launch yet another attack on me

OddSins · 18/12/2013 21:26

Talkinpeace

I seemed to have missed your evidence. VR is highly correlated with A-level performance. Or do you want to deny academically able children?

And I understand you are also denying specialist education provides benefits? Again, you seem to want ignore the evidence provided; happy to review your own evidence when you provide it.

We could also look at other countries. You don't seem to want to take on the german argument. Why not?

Original poster
TalkinPeace · 18/12/2013 21:27

metebilis
you are precious and rude
I did not, and will not apologise to you for what I did not say.
you are just so self obsessed that you think all posts between yours are about yours
frankly I do not give a stuff who you are.
this thread was not, is not and will never be about your DD - start your own thread for that.

I have a dying cat to rescue.

OP posts:
curlew · 18/12/2013 21:29

Metebilis - I ams still waiting for you to qpologize for your outrageous personal comments at 13.08. No apologies coming from me, afraid- I've done nothing to make me "hang my head in shame" and neither has talkin'. You chose, for whatever reason to take personally a completely non personal remark. It is fucking appalling that your child has not had the support she needs. And I quite understand that you are raw and incredibly sensitive. But this does not give you the right to shut down debate. And it doe not give you the right to lash out at other posters.

Metebelis3 · 18/12/2013 21:39

I did not lash out. I was the one who raised the issue of school size to which Talkin responded that it makes her laugh. I also, when raising the issue explained why. But still it made her laugh. So we all know where she stands especially since she has done her best to make us all see she isn't in fact sorry for her comment at all. And does find the issues SEN kids can have with large schools to be laughable. So that's it basically isn't it.

summerends · 18/12/2013 22:00

Cannot creativity be developed and nurtured as equally important at all levels of academic ability?
Talkin good luck with the cat.

curlew · 18/12/2013 22:14

Metebilis, you're being ridiculous now. As I'm sure you will see when you are calmer. Go and do something else, then re read the thread in the morning.

soul2000 · 18/12/2013 22:24

Only people who have "Dyspraxia" or symptoms can possibly understand, what for most people are normal everyday things are "Terrifying".

I know from my own experiences , how big schools can make situations for children with Dyspraxia, desperate and cause children to just exist at school.

In many cases just getting though a day is the equal to 3 days for other pupils. Anybody who believes Dyspraxia is Handwriting or just coordination issues is so incorrect, Dyspraxia effects the brain differently every time.
People can not understand how 1 day a Dyspraxic sufferer can be brilliant at one task , the next day the same task is impossible . This in the case of pupils at school gives the impression to teachers that the pupil is not trying or messing about when the truth is the complete opposite.

I wanted to post this in support of Metebelis and her DD. Because most sufferers of Dyspraxia are Highly intelligent and verbally excellent, Dyspraxia
is a disability that is not really understood.

Metebellis. A great website that has helped me understand more about my symptoms= Dyspraxic Adults.

wordfactory · 19/12/2013 07:57

Honestly, talkin and curlew, you really are cut from the same cloth.

Two middle class privately educated women, neither of whom use their local comp, banging on and on about what other people should or shouldn't do.

Demanding apologies, demanding evidence like a couple of spoiled todlers.

Why are you both so certain you know what's best for everyone? Why do you dismiss people's experiences and opinions?

I'm sure you will say you don't, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating here.

bryte · 19/12/2013 08:16

Talkin Please find me an example from outside London where a comp has turned away catchment kids

I know of two in South Suffolk and two in North Hampshire.

wordfactory · 19/12/2013 08:19

bryte I'm sure there are loads of schools like that. Oversubscribed schools are by their very nature unable to allocate a place to every kid in catchment who wants to go there.

This is not news to anyone...except talkin.

bryte · 19/12/2013 08:28

I also dislike the statistic that 90% or whatever (sorry can't remember the figure quoted) of parents get their first choice of school place. Most parents do not put down schools as their first choice that they have no hope of getting into. If we had a year where every parent wrote as their first choice the school they would most like their child to go to if it were possible, the percentage would be much lower.

bryte · 19/12/2013 08:30

Not that I am here to defend grammar schools, or faith schools, or state boarding schools or free schools.....

wordfactory · 19/12/2013 08:34

bryte exactly.

In the town near me, there are three schools with a definite pecking order. Now everyone knows that no.1 is a bugger to get into. You have to be a friend of him upstairs and live in the surrounding streets to get much of a sniff.

People out in the village where I live just don't bother putting it down, because they won't get it and then they might miss out on no.2 or 3 and be forced to go to the neighbouring city. Every year this happens to some poor family!

Blueberrypots · 19/12/2013 08:40

A couple of our local-ish comprehensive schools receive an average of 850-1000 applications every year for 120 places.

At least a third if not more, depending on years go to siblings. You can do your maths as to how many children might be left out from within catchment.

We are nowhere near London.

zooweemumma · 19/12/2013 08:54

We have one, very good, local comp. It is very oversubscribed. A friend of mine tried to get a place for her dd, failed and had to privately educate for 2.5 years until a place came up. The alternative offered was miles away with no reliable bus service, they would have had to collect at 3pm and as both parents worked it was impossible.

Thisisaghostlyeuphemism · 19/12/2013 08:56

Spot on word factory.

I especially love it when the privileged woman of mumsnet breathing the rarified air of Tunbridge Wells accuse others of being snobby etc. it always makes me smile.

curlew · 19/12/2013 09:25

"Two middle class privately educated women, neither of whom use their local comp"

  1. I am not privately educated.
  2. I do use my local schools. There are no comprehensives in my area, but both my children went to the schools they have been allocated by the LEA.
pickledsiblings · 19/12/2013 09:39

TalkinPeace, I admire your faith in Comps and I'm sure some of that faith comes from your DH's experience in education. It took me half a term of working full time in our local comp to find out what it was really like and what a disservice it was doing it's kids. That is not to say that there aren't fantastic teachers there and lots of innovation. Does your DH do unannounced drop-ins on lower set lessons? Does he hang around the corridors at lunch time? Does he scrutinise controlled assessment arrangements? Read staff emails?

The grammar school system in Northern Ireland still allows for social mobility but it was 'dissed' in one fell swoop last week because NI's Pisa rating isn't stellar. You have a much better chance of getting a decent free education in NI than you have in England (there are hardly any private schools).

curlew · 19/12/2013 09:42

And, wordfactory, in terms of apologies- did you actually read what talkin' was accused of? Nothing to do with education, or the thread, or politics or anything.

wordfactory · 19/12/2013 09:42

I apologise for my error curlew I thought you were privately educated after you were home educated. However my point on your local school stands. You did not need to apply for the 11 plus for your DC. You could have stepped out and not supported it, taken what was given, as you say everyone else should do.

wordfactory · 19/12/2013 09:46

And yes I did read what talkin said. Another poster stated she was looking for a small school. met agreed how important that was especially for SEN and talkin dismissed those concerns as 'hilarious' in much the same way she dismissed somone upthread as 'thick'.

lainiekazan · 19/12/2013 09:53

Ds and dd attend very large schools - primary and comprehensive. Fwiw there are parents of children with SEN busting to get into these schools. There are two SN children in dd's class. I know both mothers and they are entirely happy with the provision and progress of their dcs. So you can't possibly make a generalisation about whether big/small schools are better. It depends on so many things.

I went to a tiny primary school. I can't say I remember being nurtured , but it was the 70s, I suppose.

I went to a (very top) girls' grammar. Full of bitchy bullies and nasty old crone teachers marking time till retirement.

Dh went to a comprehensive. Full of rough kids. He was badly bullied for being "posh" and even some teachers joined in to curry favour with the disruptive kids.

Ds goes to a comprehensive. OK, they don't wear blazers, sing Jerusalem and the school buildings look like a category 3 prison, but his friends are all extremely leafy , hardworking and ambitious.

Make of all that what you will.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 19/12/2013 10:03

Gosh, I hope the fact that I went to a state comprehensive means my views are extra-valid then!

What a bizarre thing to say: I assume you don't think, Word, that if your children, in adulthood, come to embrace sentiments more egalitarian than their education might suggest, their views will therefore be laughable?

curlew · 19/12/2013 10:07

Sigh. I did take what we were allocated. We took part in the system and took what we were given.

That means, that unlike many of the pontificators on this thread, I actually know what I am talking about when it comes to a wholly selective education system. I have seen first hand the effect it has on children, schools, families and the community. For most people- including those for whom a grammar school means a superselective which leaves a "near enough" comprehensive for everyone else to go to- this is theoretical. It isn't for me. But it's so much easier to tell the messenger she's talking bollocks, isn't it? And dream of the reintroduction of grammars all over the country, so that the born privileged can stay privileged, and those that have achieved privilege can pull the ladder up after them.

Oh, and wordfactory. If I remember correctly, you are a writer. If I correct, I can only assume that you are deliberately mischief making. Please stop.