Grammar Schools : the debate is about what happens NOW

[TalkinPeace]

In the 20 years after WW2, when the baby boomers were kids, grammar schools did amazing things for social mobility.

But then, self preservation kicked back in
and since 1970, selective state schools have become progressively less inclusive
to the extent today where the (grammar school educated head of OFSTED) says
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25386784

the death knell has been rung
as it has for DB pensions (another great Baby Boomer nest lining idea)

so lets bite the bullet and put equal resources into all schools and reduce the carbon footprint of the grammar school madness.

Talkin would you mind explaining federating in this context? I remember anecdotally ex grammar schools slipping in teaching standards when they became comprehensives. How could one ensure that a good grammar and secondary modern do not become two mediocre comprehensives such as your local school?

Talkinpeace. you have just described the "Socialists Nirvana" destroying great schools in five easy steps.

Are you trying to become the new "TONY CROSS* LAND?

I think there is a problem with some teachers who only want to teach the bright kids - One of my friends has taught at City, Wilsons and then Whitgift and she will openly admit she just wants to teach bright kids ...but if there were schools with mixed ability then perhaps teaching standards would improve with more good teachers willing to teach in the comps.

summerends
I remember anecdotally ex grammar schools slipping in teaching standards when they became comprehensives.
Indeed, you probably did, but that was in the 1970's and teachers are now qualified and subject to the scrutiny of the internet.
I went to private school because there was no way my parents would have sent me to a 1970's London Comp

How could one ensure that a good grammar and secondary modern do not become two mediocre comprehensives such as your local school?

My local school is an odd case - merge a school that was consistently in the bottom 20 in the country with another that was in the bottom 200
hand it to an inexperienced evangelical Academy chain
and
golly gosh, its still crap ......

Federated schools
Are already going on all over the country due to the shortage of heads.
Two or more schools share a head and pool resources across the SMT
Often used where one needs pulling up by the short and curlies.
Where tightly supervised - which they generally are - they work well.
more info here
www.ofsted.gov.uk/news/federated-schools-see-improved-outcomes-%E2%80%93-ofsted

In most walks of life, specialisation improves quality. Not that many teachers are equally able to teach the two extremes of bright motivated children to high academic standards (at secondary level) and struggling, disengaged children. It is a rare gift. So, unless there is a huge campus or lots of money. how can you ensure that lots of smaller comprehensives will have sufficient staff for specialisation and broad curriculum?
Is that what federation delivers?

A lot of the argument as far as I can see against Grammars in this thread is, in educational research terms, comprehensives lose the so-called "compositional effect" by having an academic stream off-site i.e. geographically sited in a different building.

This effect is where a relatively homogenous group (shared educational expectations, culture, values, response to discipline etc) self-reinforce their shared characteristics (whether good or bad). For advocates of comprehensives, the logic has to be that all children would benefit from having an academic sub-group as part of their day-to-day experience with the academic focus of the teaching spilling-over. And a similar effect for sport, music, technical, drama etc.

There is much evidence against this initially appealing notion. Specialisation appears to produce better results in most forms of education. You could conceivably have silos / different streams in a campus like format but the move in this country of specialist academies is a nod towards the german model (separate schools with different focus) which has produced a highly skilled, technical workforce and affluent western economy.

the move in this country of specialist academies
um no, they were a total sham and have ceased now that the funding has been cut

Specialisation appears to produce better results in most forms of education
evidence please for the under 18's where education is compulsory

Singapore, Shangai, Hong Kong and South Korea do not have lots of different specialist schools ..... for artists and mathematicians and sporty types

Talkin - you laugh at people with disabilities a lot, do you? :(

Talkin I went to private school because there was no way my parents would have sent me to a 1970's London Comp

I went to a (late) 1970s London comp. Your parents wasted their money.

I do agree with you that federated schools are an excellent idea though, especially those that include feeder primaries as well so that the more advanced kids in Y6 can actually do useful work at their level in a controlled appropriate environment.

I've said many times that given enough money and enough will to make it work properly we could make state education consistently brilliant across the spectrum instead of in the pockets where we have brilliance now. But you just can't 'laugh' at outliers, especially not outliers who are where they are because of a disability (which I suspect you don't actually 'believe' in, from your attitude). Fixing state education takes more intelligence and ingenuity than copying the model of big agribusiness.

The key to everything though is abolishing private schools. Without that it will never be made to work.

Why is the abolition of private schools the key met.

There's really not that many of us to make an appreciable difference, is there?

I'm still struggling with the concept of federation. Does it mean travelling between schools for children or for teachers (with entailed added expense in time and transport)? Where does it happen now between comprehensives (except for extracurricular)?
Specialisation does occur between comprehensives does n't it but I thought that in some cases this allowed selection by aptitude, for example in music.

Word - where I live they really do have a much bigger impact than the single SS grammar school 30 miles away. I know it's not the same everywhere, and indeed here the SS is regarded as better than the posh schools (because it IS better, mainly!) but still it's one state school far away and they are several schools nearby. But my view isn't dictated solely by what it's like here, it's informed by my knowledge of human nature. The only way we will get the state education system we want and our kids deserve (and practically everyone on this thread wants almost exactly the same thing, apart from the small number who are purposely ignoring the issues some SEN conditions can have with giganto-schools) is if everyone, truly everyone, is invested in it being sorted and being good, because everyone, truly everyone (with kids) is stuck with it.

Curlew and Talkin' are both fond of going on about grammar schools taking kids that 'belong' to their 'local' schools. I'm much more concerned about the posh schools taking the parents. People like you.

metebilis
But you just can't 'laugh' at outliers, especially not outliers who are where they are because of a disability (which I suspect you don't actually 'believe' in, from your attitude)
Excuse me.
Where have I laughed at disability?
If you knew me you'd know how utterly inappropriate that comment is.

talkin at 18:33 you posted it always makes me laugh when school size is brought into the equation

Since I mentioned school size with direct reference to SEN conditions, and NAMED THEM, your comment seemed fairly clear to me. And it was UTTERLY inappropriate. If you knew my DD1 and what she has gone through with her disabilities in the last year you'd realise that. Or perhaps you wouldn't. Perhaps you'd still laugh. Like you did at 18:33.

I understand the frustration regarding fee paying schools. But I think abolishing them would be illiberal in the extreme.

As for big/small schools. I think the economies of scale in regards to big schools are primarily in shared facilities. Have 2000+ sized comps like they do in the USA, and suddenly theatres, DT shops, swimming pools, sports fields etc become more affordable.

On the other hand, from personal experience, I've always been happier myself in smaller institutions compared to bigger ones despite the trade off in opportunities. Being able to know everyone personally and forge an identity meant more to me. I had no special challenges. I can see how this dynamic could be even stronger for kids with SEN.

metebilis
I did not know you had a DD who has had problems at school.
My comment was infinitely more general than that.
Promise.
The amount of parents who think that the size of the school is a magic bullet to sort everything (large or small, discipline / SEN / options etc).
I have never (to my knowledge) posted in a derogatory manner about the existence of SEN or the fact that "every child matters" has to include the ones that many selective school parents pretend do not exist.

FWIW I do not support the abolition of private schools, because no country has successfully done so to the benefit of its people.

Talkinpeace

I feel a Guardian article might be best for you. Can happily provide others. We could also add that privately-provided, publicly-funded schools also out perform e.g. Charter schools in US. I'm winding you up now Talkin - your political posture is too transparent and too easy a target. Perhaps we could ask for your evidence on your various postures. I am particularly interested in your thoughts that verbal reasoning is not a basis for future academic success!! You need to review your own evidence if you do not believe that. Can happily provide the spreadsheet on correlation with A-level bands.

www.theguardian.com/education/2009/jun/09/specialist-schools-academic-performance

I have been at work today and unable to catch up with this thread till now. I still don't if talkinpeace's or curlew's points can be resolved. Me. I only care about my children. I don't have time to think about other people's children. Keeping up with my own is hard enough. But lest we forget, education is extravagantly funded and we do not have the levels of functiinal illiteracy and innumeracy that existed up to a generation ago. Let's count our blessings for what we havegot.

Aoologies. Should be "lest we not forget"

Oddsins*
I do not need to click on that link to see that it says 2009
Specialist schools were abolished by Gove in 2010.

and please, if you are going to quote me, please use copy and paste
I said that Verbal reasonging was not a GCSE subject. Which indeed it is not.

I'd love to know what you think my political posture is, as I only joined the UK electoral roll this year.

Metebilis- that was an outrageous thing to say to Talkin'' - I think you should retract and apologize. Mind you, you don't have a good track record for doing that, do you? You seem to think you have licence to be as rude as you like and expect the conversation to carry on as before.....

"The hopes of humanity rest on the scientist and engineers of tomorrtow. The brightest do need nurturing."

high ability + task commitment + creativity = "the brightest of tomorrow".

Creativity is not part of the 11+.

missinglalalad Well, I'm not a liberal I'm a socialist. So that's OK.

Talkin - Thanks. I do know why you don't laugh at disabilities (this was my original MN name. I only changed back cos of the 50th anniversary. I'm amazed people I talked to on a regular basis with this name for ages don't recognise it) but I was really very at your comment because I thought you had recognised me. And of course so few people have any idea about the issues caused by severe dyspraxia, most people (if they believe in it at all) think it's something to do with handwriting. :(

Peace? (You're wrong about private schools though)