We've done crap again in the international education league.

[mrswarbouys]

Leading to lots of talk on radio today with politicians spouting their lofty rhetoric and pointless statistics. What I'd like to know is what do people believe could be the reason why we're doing so badly?

I absolutely agree that methodical maths teaching is key. It's the nature of that method that is up for debate - do we teach children to genuinely understand how numbers work (and then practise, practise, practise as Summerworld says), or do we just teach them to memorise the operations without having them understand what they are actually doing (and then practise, practise, practise)?

I was involved in a similar debate on the Guardian website yesterday and one poster described this in terms of two conflicting models of education: The utilitarian model which is about training someone up to perform specific actions and no more than that, or a model which is about enabling someone to learn and build on their own learning.

As they said: It is far easier to train someone who has been educated than educate someone who has (only) been trained. The risk we run with the model currently in vogue in the DfE is that we are training rather than educating our children.

sadsometimes yes, teaching tables is key. However, there are ways of doing this: 1) endless recitation and memorisation and no more, and 2) identifying the mathematical patterns that occur in multiplication and memorisation.

Either way, practise and is needed, but I would argue that method 2 is going to be far more use later on when children work with much larger numbers and more complex calculations.

Yes, we like to convice ourselves that we're highly creative in the UK, that our society is full of independent thinkers.

We yes, that may be. But as DS teachers are forever saying, intellect without knowledge is utterly pointless. The very brightest must learn to conjugate their verbs and remember their formulas.

And the most creative will still need to work their arses off to make their creations work.

If I had a quid for every would-be writer that thinks novels are formed by a secret alchemy of talent and magic...

I don't think it matters! I think as long as they learn them by rote and practice practice practice eventually they will 'get' it.

Teaching them why and how can blow their minds and put them off for life. They just need to know that 4 x 4 = 16 and if they learn than without having any understanding of the 'concept' that doesn't matter - if they learn it and start to apply it it will become clear.

I have seen first hand why we are failing.

Ds, summer born and "dyslexic" could not read or write by the time he entered year 2. He was just 6 years old. From the moment those that entered that year who could not read or write, apart from 10 mins per day "reading" with a TA who used to get annoyed and shout at them when they got a word wrong, there was no help. They had to do the homework and class work that was set for the rest of the class even if that was writing a letter to a shop keeper. By the time the homework was done we were exhausted.
By the end of year 3 the others had left the school because they had moved away and I took my ds out of school to home ed him when the teacher announced that he should possibly be put in the special school as he was below nursery standard and inferred he was mentally subnormal.

My ds went on after 2 1/2 years of home edding to achieve a level 5 in his SATS in Maths, a 4 in Science and a 3 in English. Which I think is incredible considering the base level he had started from.

Given a lot of countries around the world only start school at 7 yet in this country children are written off by the age of 6. I think that is where we need to start.

MILLY: did you educate him yourself? Did you hire someone to help you?
Did you follow a certain methodology?
(asking because my son has special needs, would love to be able to help him a bit more, thanks)

I think we definitely start too early with formal education.in the UK.

Mine all did Ks1 in the village primary and it was very relaxed and mellow, its not until ks2 that 'proper' learning starts - ie times tables, spellings to learn. KS1 should be about learning to enjoy school and starting to follow rules and instructions, learning how to get on with other kids and to respect and like teachers. A bit of competition helps AS LONG AS all kids can achieve in some aspect albeit sport etc. dd3 was never at the top academically but did constantly win friendship awards for being a Generally Good Egg which did her confidence no end of good.

I once nearly blew a gasket on MN when a teacher was throwing a wobbly and saying that learning by rote discriminated against those pupils who had poor memories.

If I ruled the country I would rampage through every school and hurl out on their ear every single teacher who had this "race to the bottom" ideology. Just imagine if your dc encountered this teacher who was all for levelling everything down to the least able pupil. Can you imagine a Korean parent's reaction at this sort of teaching?

Likewise when I was a governor I had a bit of a run-in with the Head when I tentatively brought up the issue of music provision. Filing into assembly, during lunchtime, in plays it was pop music, pop music, pop music all the way, and I suggested that it might be nice if they could listen to classical music, or folk etc. Oh, no. Classical music was elitist and children couldn't access it . Whaddayado?

LOL at pop music how depressing

It wasn't even good pop music. It was "teachers' choice" music which consisted of Dido, Annie Lennox and, interestingly, The Pogues' Fairytale of New York for the Christmas play. Marvellous to see lines of infants singing along with the words to that!!

what a shame I'd be furious!

Was an interesting though slightly brief discussion about this on newsnight last night.

Was a start Paxman, but can we have more time and depth next time there's a topic which affects the entire next generation and beyond?
Wasn't that impressed by the 3 contributors, though the man that stressed the importance of creativity and problem-solving skills was OK.

Next time can we have someone who knows about early years provision as well - because the differences in this in the different countries will surely be having an effect on student's results when tested a few years later?

As long as DFs private school is full of SE Asian boarders and they are doing the same GCSEs and A levels as my DDs do for free I'm not going to worry much,

creativity and problem solving is a complete red herring IMO

it is perfectly possible to be creative and solve problems AND learn your times tables by rote unless my 7 year old is a weird genius mastermind

Sad I do think it matters, because some time tables have recurring patterns which can actually act as an aid to memory. You don't have to turn them into mathematicians very young, but anything that will help them retain the fundamentals is helpful.

The same thing applies to learning grammar, vocab and irregular verbs - languages have patterns, and recognising those patterns will help a learner remember the essentials of a language. There's a reason why pattern recognition and NVR are key skills in assessing intellectual ability. I think it's perfectly possible to have it both ways - it's certainly how I learned my tables and my MFL.

lainie that is appalling! If children have poor working memory then they should be helped to improve - it is perfectly possible to do that, it just takes time and hard work. Ditto at music - DD1 has been working on songwriting across the genres, analysing how the libretto in opera functions and how it differs in structure to other verbal musical forms. We do need to do something about those schools where a culture of low expectations exists.

Yes, and it's probably easier to solve a problem with logical thinking and accurate computations I would think ss

• but nevertheless I don't think looking at creativity and problem solving skills is a complete red herring - and apparently, according to Newsnight, the OECD don't think so either, as they are planning to assess problem-solving skills too next time

(Think I've got that right)

noddyholder: I heard someone on the radio ring in and liken it to adaptation to suit the current and emerging job market ie rising unemployment and no real Uk industry to speak of therefore no demand for highly educated workforce
this is a rubbish argument. It is easy to move around this day and age. You do not have to live and work in the UK all your life. There are many more countries and opportunities. Especially for English speakers (and British passport holders who do not have visa restrictions)!

as Gove suggests is the BEST way to learn times tables and its how I taught them to my children, if you know your times tables then you have a bloody good chance of improving at maths.
Personally, I did not know that there is a certain mathematical pattern to a times table. However, I got no problem remembering how much is 5x7. I just know it is 35. The times tables are ingrained and under my skin, even 30 years past school. Maybe because I had to do ten of thousands operations invoilving times tables in maths classes and at home?

It is enriching to know the workings behind the times tables, but in everyday life all you need to know if the answer, and know it quick.
It is no good, on the contrary, to know the workings and not know the answer in an instant.

I remember a Chinese maths tutor at my UK University. We just could not keep up with her, and she genuinely did not get what the problem was - she did not exactly teach difficult stuff. But we were so so much slower in thinking than what she would expect. It is nothing but lack of practice IMO.

Here's some juicy bits (from a recent Reuters report on this) for Early Years practitioners and advocates, like myself (of which I know there are quite a few here on Mumsnet) ......

"Early starters also performed better, with students who attended pre-primary school at about a year ahead of those who did not."

And "The OECD recommended in particular that governments subsidise pre-primary education in poor areas"

Strategists, educationalists, and teachers/practitioners take note

yes I agree with an early start - a lot of this education game is just practice practice practice - the sooner they get crackign the better IMO, it doesn't need to be hellishly stressful

That's interesting, Juggling. My DDs went to a nursery which had a qualified Foundation teacher and so they started on phonics at around age 3. It was all very playfully done and nothing was forced, but my DDs did come into school quite a long way ahead and reading and writing 'clicked' with them early. The same applied to children coming from the other really good nursery nearby, which used the same strategy. It was very much a nursery setting, not a preschool - no uniform and so on - but education was on offer and widely taken up.

However, those were both very leafy, naice nurseries with parents who were engaged with their children's education. As an engaged and slightly leafy parent myself, I always assumed that background had something to do with it too - things like eating together as a family, limiting tv and consoles, discussing life, the universe and everything and of course reading out loud to our DDs every night (which I still do even now they are 10 and 12 )

It's interesting to see these recommendations for poorer areas. Can't see it happening though in the current financial climate.

Timetoask I just went back to basics. Started using phonic sounds I.e what sounds different letters and letter group sounded like. Started at the first level of books from the library and helped him read a page or 2 noting any words he struggled on. Then going over the words afterwards. Then going over them the following day. I printed them out and cut them up and put them in a bag and at the end of the week pulled them out one by one to see if he could read them. I got KS1 Maths book Science and writing practice books from Smiths. I got the KS1 English but we really struggled with this so left it until he could read. Teaching him Maths was a revelation. If I was so inclined I think I could have had him pass Maths GCSE next summer. He apparently scored 0% in his last exam at school because he could not read the questions.
Ds apart from his handwriting which has not improved despite 2 1/2 years of practice, ( Spoke to a friend whose ds had just been diagnosed with dysgraphia and the symptoms she spoke of could have been said of ds,) has made great strides forward and is most certainly not mentally sub normal.

Pointy both of mine went to a nursery that taught them phonics etc, we sit down to eat together, we live in nice leafy area, we discuss anything and everything with them and I too read to both each night but dd has been diagnosed as being in the bottom 1% in certain academic areas because of dyslexia and ds was told he was mentally subnormal. However they have opinions and can discuss on all sorts of matters just don't ask them to write them down.

laine summerworld I and my DDs in common with 10 % of the population, not a few of them mathematicians and scientists, including apparently Einstein, have working memory problems. It does mean we will never learn tables via rote learning or have instant retrieval (and I was taught in a 60s grammar school) but it does not mean we can't learn the logic and patterns behind tables and then implement that. Both my DDs have A in Maths at GCSE and one has A in Maths at A level and is now studying maths at university for use in manipulating experimental data and I too made extensive use of mathematical skills in gaining various postgrad marketing qualifications and in a long career at senior level, especially in developing sophisticated mathematical models and interpreting statistics

In fact teaching the logic and patterns alongside rote learning will benefit more than just the part of the class that have working memory problems. The point about traditional teaching methods is that they don't suit every child whereas with a mix of teaching methods you can benefit a greater part of the class and hopefully make some progress with the greatest challenge our country faces which is not the standard of our education system at it's best, but rather the inequality of educational outcomes. And quite frankly instant recall of times tables is not what makes a good mathematician, it is instantly being able to activate the logical thinking and to be able to spot patterns at an instinctive level, that is when it becomes a "beautiful mind". My DDs are far better equipped to do that because of the extensive training they have had in strategies for speeding up mental arithmetic, they have even taught me a few!