We've done crap again in the international education league.

[mrswarbouys]

Leading to lots of talk on radio today with politicians spouting their lofty rhetoric and pointless statistics. What I'd like to know is what do people believe could be the reason why we're doing so badly?

Interesting how people are talking about creativity on here. Gove has butchered design education in schools

I don't see anyone suggesting that we frame our education system to become Korean .

And to be fair, it's not simply school that is causing unhappiness amongst its youth. It is a complex system of expectation/responsibility.

However, scientists in this country have long been arguing that our science education is simply not keeping up. We need to look perhaps at the ways in which science is valued in other cultures, and the style of teaching.

I agree wordfactory, science is not valued in the current UK system. Children should have the same amount of Science as Maths and English IMO.

I think one of the problems is that the curriculum gets more and more crowded.

Each passing year the world and his wife want teachers to teach summat else! Everything from debt management to cycling profficency.

Teachers just can't do it! Not and fit in the basics to a decent standard!

We either need to weed out some of the non-academic stuff or increase the amount of hours. Othewrwise everything gets more and more diluted.

monet3
Do you have children at Secondary school in the UK?

DD is doing Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Maths and English (among other subjects)
how much science SHOULD she be doing?

wordfactory
the devaluing of science is one of the few things that CAN be laid at the door of the media.
DH gets utterly sick of TV people interviewing him and their opening gambit being "I hated science at school"
would they start an interview with a musician by saying they hated music?

Yes, I do have children at secondary school Talking. My DD is doing triple science GCSE. My year 8 child does one term per science a year and my youngest DD only gets an hour and a half a week of combined Science a week this is not enough and this is part of the problem.

Our society does not value scientists, engineers, artists, writers etc.

Instead we venerate popular culture icons - sportsmen, actors, musicians, reality TV stars etc.

This is fine to an extent, but it has given children the dream of flunking school and getting lucky. No one believes in working hard to achieve a goal.

no g in my name btw

if your child is doing GCSEs, how did you not know about the changes to the school leaving age and the implications it has on all 6th forms?

with science education - as in all things - its quality not quantity that counts

monet3 a very good point about celebrity worship - I think it does contribute to a culture of 'it isn't cool to do well at school'.

This was around when I was at secondary in the Netherlands, but it is much worse here and now. If it weren't for the fact that DD1's school explicitly pushes academic achievement and that she is part of a group of about 10 high achieving (and sporty) girls, her life at school would be really, really tough. As it is - well, it isn't easy to bully a sizeable group. People still try, though.

Little question:
How comes Shanghai is top of the PISA table?
Isn't it a city, not a country?

I did know. Why are you taking comments from other threads and applying them to this one?

Quality and quantity get results, as you well know. An hour or two a week of what equates to 3 subjects is not enough.

science is not valued in the current UK system. Children should have the same amount of Science as Maths and English IMO

My DD is doing her GCSEs - triple science. I just looked at her timetable, about twice as much science as English (which is lit and lang).

Our society does not value scientists, engineers, artists, writers etc.
There you have a very valid point, but it's not the fault of the education system. Its to do with parasitical various other professions commanding higher remuneration. Not just 'slebs'

Errol, this only happens at GCSE level why not add more science into the curriculum for younger children?

Science and engineering are not only part of our past - the future of our economy depends to an ever-increasing extent on our continued excellence in scientific discovery and high-tech manufacturing and engineering does it not?

I said further up the thread that the Media is to blame for valuing nohopers over professionals and academics.

I have a child in my class from a country which scored highly. A couple of weeks ago I had a parents evening meeting with these parents. The child is doing really well; working at well above expected level, making really rapid progress, working really hard at school (and I suspect home as well). I was told I must put more pressure on her, I must keep the pressure up all the time and she must always feel the stress, if she is not feeling stressed she will not do well. She must not play, she must do work at playtimes, she must always do it perfectly. My first thought as this conversation started was language barrier issues, so I clarified. But no that is exactly what the parents meant.

The child is six years old!

I've visited South Korea too and stayed with a very kind family there - I was very impressed by their two lovely children and their attitudes to their school work, to learning English (with their visitor) and to the relaxed and friendly family atmosphere. Most of the women were SAHM's too which was interesting - we spent a day playing tennis and another day the group took me to visit a local temple with lunch out together in a local restaurant - some of this may have been for my benefit but nevertheless I think it was an insight into their culture and family life.
Crucially South Korea mustn't be confused with the very different North Korea.

why not add more science into the curriculum for younger children?

I'm a scientist, so very pro-science, but thinking about what DD covered at various ages so far, not too sure what would be possible to add earlier that would be of real value. You really do need to have got to a certain level of maths and mental sophistication before you can deal with most science. They could do a bit more computer science earlier.

My Uncle is a physics professor he thinks the standard of his new students knowledge is declining year on year.
I said earlier the whole curriculum needs updating, not just Science.

CanIMakeIt that is so very sad.

Juggling no-one here is confusing North and South Korea. North Korea does not participate in these tests. The girl who was interviewed on the BBC yesterday - the one who was sleeping just about 4 hours a night and doing a double shift in school and in a crammer - she was in South Korea. Which has a sky high suicide rate.

We have a culture of low academic achievement in this country and a ridiculously overdeveloped sense of protecting our children from 'stress'. As soon as there's any sign of stress then we encourage our children to give up. Being happy is seen as the absolute pinnacle of childhood - yes of course we want happiness but that can be achieved by also encouraging and pushing our children. Dds school day runs from 8.30 to 5.30 and she has lots of homework. She's thriving and happy and will do well.

But the proportion of time spent on literacy and maths at primary level is because they are the facilitating subjects for studying science and other subjects at secondary level. If you cannot read the textbooks and record results correctly you cannot study science to the same level. Hence the different proportions of science vs English/maths at different ages.

8.30 to 5.30 is a longer day than very many of us do at work. Then homework on top of that? No, that is too much. My DD's school day runs from 9 till 3.30. She has a moderate amount of sensible homework. She is thriving and happy and will do well - is in a set of children aiming for Oxbridge/RG universities. She has tests regularly, and I have no problem with that - at secondary, they should be learning to deal with testing and with some stress. The low academic achievement culture is damaging - but so is the all work and no play culture. There has to be a middle ground.

Tragic story in today's Times about 10 and 12 yr old Chinese pupils committing suicide after being reprimanded by teachers. This is not a culture that the UK should be aspiring to!

We have a culture of low academic achievement in this country

Do we really? I don't see it among anyone I know.

Errol my DD1 sees it in school every day. She gets picked on for being academic. She has a good friendship group who are all just like her, but it is still not easy at times.

DD2 is in Yr6 and gets picked on too - she's like her sister, 2 to 3 years ahead of average. The only difference is that she is a confident character who will fight back, whereas DD1 is more sensitive.

There are very good reasons why a lot of people are not engaged with education - the legacy of the class system and the lack of real social mobility (think: unpaid internships for the children of wealthy parents) mean that a lot of people believe that it isn't worth trying, because they are beating on a locked door. Unlocking that door has to come first.

ipad
China refused to allow its national results to be included, so only Hong Kong and Shanghai were included to give a false impression.

Did anyone here do the maths sample questions that were given in the BBC article? < go on do it>

We did them at work as a laugh thinking that we would fail a couple each as the levels got "harder".

Um, no. We all got 100% and couldn't believe how easy they were. Which has frankly scared the hell out of me re how maths etc is being taught.