We've done crap again in the international education league.

[mrswarbouys]

Leading to lots of talk on radio today with politicians spouting their lofty rhetoric and pointless statistics. What I'd like to know is what do people believe could be the reason why we're doing so badly?

yup, I did them all - but then I'm an accountant
and i'm not 15
and we do not know what questions were asked in different contries as they were not the same everywhere

'the devaluing of science is one of the few things that CAN be laid at the door of the media.
DH gets utterly sick of TV people interviewing him and their opening gambit being "I hated science at school"
would they start an interview with a musician by saying they hated music?'

It's even worse when it comes to maths. It's practically a badge of honour to be crap at maths in the UK - self-deprecation in the extreme!

The cultural issue is such valid one and along with asking what is positive in British culture and working out how it can be capitalised on when we teach our children, we need also to identify what is bad about it and make sure that this does not permeate our educational system.

I would say the questions posed were very basic. I do not have an accountacy/ finance/maths background but I do have a 15 DS who thought the same.

Agreed, the sample questions were easy - my DD1 could have done them and she is 12.

Well all I can say is I sent my daughter to a British boarding school....Says a lot....

She is loving it....but she doesn't eat MacDonalds.....

To her she just does it...and nothing is impossible.

So I dont think the Education system in the UK is crap..

Errol I think there has been a cultural shift in the UK vis a vis the value of an education.

It is no longer seen as a way to lift yourself up or better yourself. Around 40% of all young people now have a degree and they're coming to realise many of them are not going to provide much assistance.

Popping off to uni (even an RG one ) is no longer a ticket to ride.

Certain industries are now closed off to all but the children of the wealthy and well connected. Young people know this.

I'm involved in the widening access programme for Oxbridge and the science departments find it harder than most to recruit good candidates from non-selective state schools.

Maybe, young people have it very "cushty" here.

The main motivation for people to do well and more on in life comes from knowing that education is the only way up if there is no safety net to protect.
There is an culture in the UK of entitlement. Someone else will fix it for me. I don't need to work for it. I will get lots of benefits, so why should I work hard?

Timetoask that's certainly what many of my immigrant friends think .

TBH I think there's an element of that. I've visted China quite a few times, and what seems clear is that if you're poor there, you're poor. Destitute, no access to proper healthcare, fuel, food etc.

Yet, if you're middle class, you really do live a life beyond your parents' wildest dreams.

So that is very much the goal for anyone who can.

Also, the fear of losing that is entrenched. To go backwards is not only shameful, but extreme.

These are powerful drivers to work hard at school. Plus of course years being starved of anythiung except state sponsored knowledge produces a powerful hunger, that is being opassed down to the younger generation.

Here in the UK, things are different. Being poor is not quite so extreme (though not pleasant) and has been avoided by the vast majoirty of the country in recent times.

In addition, 'doing well at school' is not going to propel you into an entirely different sphere. To have a markedly different life to your parents, you're going to need to do a hell of a lot!

Also many children of the traditional middle classes can see that their parents did do well at school...and yet they're quite skint. The nouveau pauvre.

It hasn't provided the sort of lifestyle anyone expected, so of course the young 'uns are having a rethink!

We have a culture of low academic achievement in this country and a ridiculously overdeveloped sense of protecting our children from 'stress'. As soon as there's any sign of stress then we encourage our children to give up. Being happy is seen as the absolute pinnacle of childhood - yes of course we want happiness but that can be achieved by also encouraging and pushing our children. Dds school day runs from 8.30 to 5.30 and she has lots of homework. She's thriving and happy and will do well

I agree 100% with this, sadsometimes.

I come from a different system and feel that "happiness" is vastly overrated and that the majority of children are actually at their happiest when they have a sense of achievement, which comes from hard work.

Incidentally, my DD1 is the same as sadsometimes and her happiness vastly increased when we moved her to a more focussed and hard working environment.

I think it needs to be a balance.

We don't want our young people squeezed of their joyfullness.

But on the other hand, we need to see that they're are robust and resilient. They won't crumble at the first sniff of pressure or failure or competition. Or they won't if a parent does their job properly!

dd is educated independently. She occasionally has a longer and more stressful day than I do in full time work. When people talk about England's education system being the envy of many overseas they are talking about the independent sector. The state sector could learn a lot from this but Gove is ridiculed whereever he goes, so I can't see things improving any time soon.

Kids are 'happy' leaving school at 3pm, making a poster on the pc then playing xbox until 9pm. I'd be horrified if my children did this more than once every few weeks and only then it would be a 'treat' given as downtime if they had worked hugely hard over a couple of weeks. Actually they never wnat to play on the xbox but they'd watch shite tv instead - they can do this at the weekend (evening only as there is sport and animals to look after during the day!) and perhaps once a fortnight at home.

"We don't want our young people squeezed of their joyfullness.

But on the other hand, we need to see that they're are robust and resilient. They won't crumble at the first sniff of pressure or failure or competition. Or they won't if a parent does their job properly!"

yes i agree but the school is complicit in this by building CONFIDENCE at school, to deal with failure healthily you first have to know what it feels like to succeed. This is why a broad curriculum including sport, drama etc give some children the chance to taste success sometimes for the first time which then in turn helps them to cope with failure.

Kids are 'happy' leaving school at 3pm, making a poster on the pc then playing xbox until 9pm.

That's a bit of a sweeping statement though, sadsometimes. It is not the case that this is what state sector kids do as a matter of course - many work very hard, have homework and extracurricular activities - my DD plays netball and basketball for the school team and trains 4 hours a week on top of her school work, for example. And she most certainly does not play on consoles during the school week, stay up until 9pm or watch loads of crap tv. None of her friends live like that either. You have a distorted idea of what the state sector is like.

I agree that there needs to be a balance too, but I think at the moment the balance is skewed too far the other way.

Yes I am aware of that as many of dds friends are at the local good state comp. But children like dd and your dd will do will in life as they are motivated and driven. There are huge amounts of kids who are not.

I heard someone on the radio ring in and liken it to adaptation to suit the current and emerging job market ie rising unemployment and no real Uk industry to speak of therefore no demand for highly educated workforce and

That's just an excuse IMO.

Yes times are tough but surely that should mean even more incentive to get a good education. Success is not celebrated in our culture unless its winning the X Factor and even then we can't wait to tear them down.

noddy I,ve thought for some time that the middle was disappearing.

There are low paid jobs and there are highly paid, highly skilled jobs that require a hell of a lot to get a foot in the door.

^Pointyfangs:
What we need to watch out for is people (like Michael Gove) who believe that learning mathematical operations by rote without underlying understanding is the way to go. ^

One can uinderstand maths very well, but it will soon be forgotten if not practised. This is where maths teaching falls down in this country. No textbook which is tried and tested is used in class, but instead print-outs, dog-eared sheets etc. A disjointed approach which maths does not forgive.

I was educated in a Eastern European country and maths command is way better there among the general population. Because of the different way maths is taught in schools. There is a number of approved textbooks to choose from (all of which cover the curriculum), those textbooks introduce topics in a systematic way, building from basic concepts onto more complex one. The new ideas are practised a lot, I am talking around 10 sets of exercises for each new topic. As you progress through the textbook, past topics are intertwined into new ones and the student gets their knowledge refreshed and kept active.

I find that in the UK schooling there is no particular linkage between different maths topics, students study one thing this week, a different thing next week. there is little opportunity to repeat and practise throughout the year what has been learnt and synergise the concepts.

I think Eastern and Asian countries tend to be a lot more methodical and this certainly pays off when maths is concerned.

I agree that problem solving and creative thinking emphasis is a big advantage of UK education. But one still needs to know the facts and have the breadth of knowledge to problem solve. There must be foundations to build on. For some reason foundation building is often overlooked in favour of independent thinking. But the latter is not truly possible without the former.

Why don't parents of kids who are struggling with maths insist on mathletics or workbooks after school? 45 mins of mathletics 4 days a week can really help confidence. Of course its not a magic solution but it helps kids to know that maths is nothing to be scared of. Despite being bright and hard working dd struggles with maths. I am not good at explaining year 9 maths! But going back to basics with mental maths and times tables seemed to help her with her confidence generally which has had a knock on effect in her school work.

It is like the workforce is adapting to availability unconsciously a bit like when bugs and viruses mutate to suit the current environment. I don't think they were saying it was an excuse. it would be an excuse if the jobs were there and still the results were bad. Its a scary thought. I do agree that the instant gratification via Xfactor and the like which has been a huge part of the cultural norm in the last 10 years or so has promoted the get rich quick with little effort idea that we so love in this country.

"I find that in the UK schooling there is no particular linkage between different maths topics, students study one thing this week, a different thing next week. there is little opportunity to repeat and practise throughout the year what has been learnt and synergise the concepts.

I think Eastern and Asian countries tend to be a lot more methodical and this certainly pays off when maths is concerned.

I agree that problem solving and creative thinking emphasis is a big advantage of UK education. But one still needs to know the facts and have the breadth of knowledge to problem solve. There must be foundations to build on. For some reason foundation building is often overlooked in favour of independent thinking. But the latter is not truly possible without the former."

^^^ this ^^^^

Thing is, sadsometimes, there comes a point at which we have to stop blaming schools and teachers and start looking at parents and wider society. There isn't one single factor that affects how children do at school, there are many and they are complex.

You and I and many others have the parenting skills to keep our children motivated and working as well as happy - not everyone has that, and for very good reasons. We live in a world where we have material wealth shoved into our faces 24/7 - celeb worship, brand names, easy credit - you name it. There's this illusion that you can have it all without paying for it. That is a culture that needs changing. We also need to improve social mobility so that young people have something to aspire to. It is not a coincidence that many countries with less of a rich/poor divide do better in the PISA tests than the UK, and Andreas Schleicher who was interviewed yesterday made it very clear that inequality was a factor in the UK's position.

Yes I agree I don't blame teachers or schools at all - in fact blame almost certainly lies on the shoulders of parents tbh - ALTHOUGH I do think learning times tables by rote as Gove suggests is the BEST way to learn times tables and its how I taught them to my children, if you know your times tables then you have a bloody good chance of improving at maths.