Genuine question - why do some people have a problem with the grammar school system

[englishteacher78]

I went to one - my choice in part, parents would have preferred me to go to the Catholic secondary. As a teacher I have worked in two.
I know if I had gone to the Catholic school I would have coasted (even more than I did).
Some people seem to he very against the grammar school system and I'm not sure why. It was the making of my dad (miner's son from council estate in Scotland)and I think that all counties should have that provision. Surely it's just split site streaming in a way.

merrymouse
The actual number attending University is different.
When I went in the 1980's it was 1 in 20
Bliar had the stupid idea of 50% which was never achievable or sane.
It rose to just under 40% in 2009
The number is now declining back towards around 30% which is much more sensible

retro
when did you stop teaching, as your comments do not reflect the reality that DH sees in dozens of schools all over the country every year.

curlew
The "grammar" kids will be in top set maths, but may be in bottom set PE and art - so learn a dose of humility. Good thing too.

zzz - I am so not trying to impress you, honestly!

Sorry you're 'horribly offended' (that's a quote so I used appropriate punctuation, there) by my use of punctuation.

I'm horribly offended by the numbers of people who think educational segregation based on a single exam that it's tutorable for if you have committed parents or enough money is somehow acceptable in 21 Century Britain, that's all.

Talkin - some kids at selective schools may have a narrower range of friends and outlooks than some kids at non selective schools. For others the reverse will be true.

zzzzz
I grew up in a wheelchair house and have close family members who have always lived in sheltered accommodation after attending their segregated schools. Stop being so prickly. It does not help your argument.

DCs school is not at all wheelchair friendly, but the local schools divvy the kids up between them to ensure as many as possible are given the right chances. Wheels / Deaf / Autism / semi secure etc etc

I totally agree with setting (not streaming). You tend not to get disruption in the top sets. Where you have mixed ability classes such as ICT or non-curricular days where the students work on a project for the whole day it can be wonderful to see the different abilities mixing (I am mainly thinking very high/very low ability because of the nature of this thread). I write in the context of where the best educational setting is for a high ability student..... comprehensive IMO. Teaching others is known to be the best way of consolidating your own knowledge. I am very happy that when my DS finishes his ICT work, he is able to wander around the class and support others. Supporting others and learning empathy is a wonderful and priceless educational experience for the high ability kids. And I certainly do not mean that they replace the teacher - I would not expect a lot of their school time to be taken up with these kind of activities but when they do happen, they are special and enriching.

Yes I see Kitchen. That is how it is at my DCs school and only happens in Y10 I think so they would work as a class 'til then. They probably do some things in mixed groups such as their chosen options etc. They are set for English. I think they could move up or down but I am not 100% sure.

I agree about the curriculum days etc.

Most schools set for maths including the one I worked in

My DS's school set for Maths, Science and English.

Too bloody right they are disablist.

zzzzz
Are we supposed to see this as an enlightened approach??
Well its a darned sight better than putting any kid whose face did not fit into a special school.
And its a darned sight better than schools trying to adapt (badly) to unusual situations.
One of the secondaries in this area has more than a dozen kids in chairs so they are built into the timetables and layout, rather than being an afterthought.
The other schools have staircases in core subject buildings - and as pupils are no longer allowed to carry others up the stairs (as was done with my parent)- I utterly fail to see why creating a centre of expertise within a mainstream school cluster is 'disablist'.

Out of interest, how many of the grammar schools have specific provision for (and actually take) bright children with mobility and speech problems?

I teach at a grammar school. If a student with mobility or speech problems lived in area and got the necessary mark at 11+ we would (and do take) them, if we could manage their access needs. However, my understanding of the law is that we are required to make reasonable adjustments but not to make major changes to buildings (that would be the responsibility of the local authority).

That said, any access improvements help disabled & pregnant staff and parents, and students temporarily on crutches etc, so I'm sure any sensible large institution would want buildings to be as accessible as possible.

One problem in new buildings, however, is that there never seems to be any surplus space (square footage being £££s). You could not actually get a wheelchair into our newer classrooms - you can barely squeeze a year 7 class in. Visitors from Germany and Canada have commented on the small size of the rooms.

Phineyj
we are required to make reasonable adjustments but not to make major changes to buildings (that would be the responsibility of the local authority)
But more than half of the secondary schools in England are now Academies, not connected to the Local Authority.
What is their record on inclusive admissions?

And yes, small rooms/narrow corridors in new build schools are a real problem brewing.

I think it is very naive to think there are no behaviour problems in the grammar school. Clever children are much more devious at being disruptive and bullying! I know one girl whose parents had to take her out at lunchtime because the school couldn't/wouldn't guarantee her safety and one boy who was beaten up as he got off the bus, by fellow grammar school pupils. All schools have bullying, it is how they deal with it that counts.

Well its a darned sight better than putting any kid whose face did not fit into a special school.
And its a darned sight better than schools trying to adapt (badly) to unusual situations.

I feel it's important to point out that most parents of children with disabilities are not looking for schools to just be "a darned sight better" than shit.

*I grew up in a wheelchair house and have close family members who have always lived in sheltered accommodation after attending their segregated schools. Stop being so prickly. It does not help your argument.

DCs school is not at all wheelchair friendly, but the local schools divvy the kids up between them to ensure as many as possible are given the right chances. Wheels / Deaf / Autism / semi secure etc etc*

It's always helpful to remember that even though YOU may not be offended by particular terms, many others may be. I find the terms offensive along with referring to children with disabilities as "the wheelchair kid" or referring to them simply by a descriptor based on their disability.

Well... that was a spectacular highlight fail.

Well its a darned sight better than putting any kid whose face did not fit into a special school.
And its a darned sight better than schools trying to adapt (badly) to unusual situations.

Triggles
parents of children with disabilities should be given exactly the same options as every parent - many parents have more than one child.
Which is another reason I am against selective schools as they discourage cooperation to find best options for all children.

I could name the child who uses a chair part of the time, or name her incredibly rare condition, but she refers to herself as part of the 'wheelchair gang' at their school - they do a rather good trick of clearing corridors - but actually its more interesting that she is planning to get the grades to go to an RG uni because she has been supported well even with the family income entirely comprising benefits.

zzzzz
All non feckless parents want their child to get the best possible education.

Where an LEA has an overview of a whole area they can arrange for certain schools to offer certain facilities and specialise so that every child has the chance to go to the best school for them, even if it is not the nearest.
Should being a Catholic override physical needs?
Should being bad at maths override speech therapy needs?

In a comprehensive system, all children are (as far as possible) included and then sent to the best school for them.
In a selective system, those who fail whatever the test is get left with the least desirable.

I have a very great fear that the Academies and Free schools - because there is no overview - will allow hard to place children to fall through the cracks unless they have very motivated parents.
And as I assume you know, many parents of children with extra needs are too darned tired to fight those battles.

Talkinpeace actually, if you read my post, you would know that I said NOTHING about selective schools or grammar schools... I addressed your use of terms that some feel are disablist and offensive. I also pointed out that a school (whatever school, thank you very much) being "a darned sight better" than shit is not really a great recommendation for that school. Which IMO is pretty much true.

You can "name" whomever you like and her "incredibly rare condition", I'm not really fussed. Just be kind enough to remember that even though you're comfortable using some terms, other people are not.

'Surely it's just split site streaming in a way.'

No it's not. There's no way back from an 11+ fail. You don't get to move between sets, or streams, further on - you just get relegated.

We live where there is a complete divide between those who pass and those who do not.

Ds is dyslexic, but not typically so can achieve average results. He has had NO help at all with this, and recently failed by a small margin, which the school will not appeal because this is his standard of work on a normal day.

His IQ is >140.

Now we have to put down schools we hate that are filled with teachers who have given up on the children and have no expectations of them

while all his NT friends are off to the lovely grammar school and a life of opportunity

Should he have been cast aside like this at 10? Really? Should not ALL children who try hard, are keen, polite, helpful, diligent, intelligent and very very anxious to do well, not be given exactly the same opportunities at least into their teens?

If not, why not?