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Original poster

Genuine question - why do some people have a problem with the grammar school system

1000 replies

englishteacher78 · 24/10/2013 07:24

I went to one - my choice in part, parents would have preferred me to go to the Catholic secondary. As a teacher I have worked in two.
I know if I had gone to the Catholic school I would have coasted (even more than I did).
Some people seem to he very against the grammar school system and I'm not sure why. It was the making of my dad (miner's son from council estate in Scotland)and I think that all counties should have that provision. Surely it's just split site streaming in a way.

OP posts:
PatoBanton · 26/10/2013 17:59

I dont know about elsewhere but round here, they are generally pretty dire.

I think it is a combination of things - and I am happy and excited for the children who passed, and that they have an opportunity to shine but I think that opportunity should extend to my child as well.

At the moment it feels as though his future is very limited indeed.

Trigglesx · 26/10/2013 18:03

Okay, wading in here on a couple points.

  1. It seems very sad that a single test at age 11 defines a child's future, based on school choices
  1. It seems sad that people are WILLING to write off a child that hasn't passed this test - either by virtue of relegating him to a substandard education or even by accepting that he has to have a substandard education.

While obviously I think this whole "everything hanging on one test score" is utterly ridiculous, I also think that if people are unhappy with the educational choices in their area, they should be pushing locally to get improvements made. Isn't that what's important? That they ALL get a decent education? Confused

PatoBanton · 26/10/2013 18:05

Yes of course that is what matters but how on earth do we push for that?

I wouldn't know where to begin.

Trigglesx · 26/10/2013 18:09

I don't know. But there are loads of people on MN. Surely somebody knows, right? What's the point of having this huge group of voting adults without utilising it to better the system??

WooWooOwl · 26/10/2013 18:15

Everything doesn't hang on one test for many families though, the majority of the country doesn't relegate children to a substandard education.

If this is what happens in areas where the majority take the 11+ then that is clearly wrong, but that isn't the reality of grammar schools for people in my area. For us it's just an option, and if we choose not to take that option or our children don't make the grade for that option, then they will be brilliantly educated elsewhere. Their education won't be substandard at all, it is likely that it will be broader.

zzzzz · 26/10/2013 18:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SoupDragon · 26/10/2013 18:19

It seems sad that people are WILLING to write off a child that hasn't passed this test - either by virtue of relegating him to a substandard education or even by accepting that he has to have a substandard education.

Why is it substandard? It is actually a standard level of education.

PatoBanton · 26/10/2013 18:21

Soup not round here it's not.

children shouting and swearing at teachers, climbing on desks during lessons, throwing things

tearing a kid to bits for playing an instrument

fingers up to cars as they walk blind across a road forcing an emergency stop

if your kid can cope with that and still get any sort of education in the midst of it then they are doing well

Trigglesx · 26/10/2013 18:22

SoupDragon Well that was rather my point. People were saying that if they didn't get into the grammar school that their child would get a substandard education and I'm just wondering why people think that. Again, if they feel the schools they would be choosing from in future are not of good standard, perhaps they need to address that issue directly by pushing for improvements in their schools.

Trigglesx · 26/10/2013 18:25

*Soup not round here it's not.

children shouting and swearing at teachers, climbing on desks during lessons, throwing things

tearing a kid to bits for playing an instrument

fingers up to cars as they walk blind across a road forcing an emergency stop

if your kid can cope with that and still get any sort of education in the midst of it then they are doing well*

But in this type of situation, by pushing to get your own child in the grammar to avoid this, aren't you kind of doing the same "I'm alright Jack" that the more wealthy parents that can afford tutors are being accused of doing? Trying to make sure YOUR kid gets into grammar, but not caring about the other kids that won't get in?

If the schools are that bad, then DO something about it. Get involved and push locally to improve things. Then everyone benefits.

Trigglesx · 26/10/2013 18:26

alright.. what the blazes is going on with my "bold" lately? Hmm

WooWooOwl · 26/10/2013 18:31

Pato, if that's what happened in your area, then it's obviously not good, but that is down to the parents of the children that go to those schools, to the schools themselves, and the children.

The grammar school and the parents and children that use them are not to blame for the behaviour of children that are not at all connected to them.

If things were like that in my area, then too right I'd be pushing my dc to get into the grammar schools. And if that comes across as I'm alright Jack then that's fine by me. I'm not responsible for other people's badly behaved children any more than anyone else in society is. You wouldn't say it was the responsibility of the residents of the local old people's home to do something about it, you wouldn't expect local single professionals to do something about it, so why expect other parents who are doing the best they can for their own dc to do something about it?

PatoBanton · 26/10/2013 18:47

Woo, I don't. I never said that.

PatoBanton · 26/10/2013 18:48

I'm not sure why you think I did.

Of course it isn't their fault.

Blu · 26/10/2013 18:50

"couldn't give a stuff re any poster's school choice so please do butt out of mine"

This thread was started about a grammar school system.

Personally I have no feelings about the choices parents make for their children within the systems an options that are available to them. None of this affects me personally very much because I am not in Selectivia and despite living in S London had 3 realistic and good options for secondary.

But if I were inventing an education system from scratch, for today (not for 2 generations ago), and for all children of the upcoming generations who will support the country's economy while I languish about on a Saga holiday or starve to death in my unheated flat, then it wouldn't include faith schools or grammar schools - it would be a new system and set-up and it would have loads of ways of supporting the strength and potential of all sorts of different children. (I have tought about it in some detail).

For me, grammar schools are a sort of 'If we wanted to get to something better we wouldn't start from here' feature.

I tell you, when I run this country, it will all be better Grin

alemci · 26/10/2013 19:09

where's Seeker these days. she often posted on here about the grammar schools in Kent.

exoticfruits · 26/10/2013 19:32

Seeker went in the summer, got upset about a thread she started and hasn't been on since.

kitchendiner · 26/10/2013 19:38

I will vote for you Blu!

I am so glad I live in an area without grammars. My DS goes to a lovely comp with kids with the full range of abilities. I feel for you Pato Banton as I have also have a very clever dyslexic DS who would definitely fail his 11+. He is now in some top sets where he can mix with other clever kids and he is also in a lower set (maths) where he is taught at the right level for him. I would be distraught if my DS had to go to a school where his bright peers had been creamed off (despite most of them not being so bright - but much better at maths).

PatoBanton · 26/10/2013 19:55

I miss Seeker.

PatoBanton · 26/10/2013 19:56

Oh thankyou KD that is very kind of you.

I wish we lived somewhere like that.

Talkinpeace · 26/10/2013 20:41

Triggles
bold does not work if you
put a
return in the middle Smile

TBH from where I live, grammar schools are a nasty irrelevance for others as there are non in this county and long may it continue.
THe Kent system is about to under go a "tutor proof" overhaul yeah right
and the results of some grammars continue to be outstripped by some comps
nuff said

Trigglesx · 26/10/2013 21:06

ha... well, that'll learn me Grin

mathanxiety · 26/10/2013 21:35

Pato, that reminds me very much of my own secondary school in Dublin and the wantonly self destructive behaviour of many students. The reason children are like that is their perception of being left on the 'dumped' heap. It's something their parents pass on to them. Similarly, the children in the US high school I am familiar with who behave like that also have a real legacy of being excluded from opportunity that was passed down through the generations.

I believe that the existence of a system where systematic exclusion of groups from opportunity over many generations has serious consequences for the education system today. The existence of selective schools and a multi stranded school choice based on ability to pay and the perceptions they engender among the have nots is pernicious.

mathanxiety · 26/10/2013 21:39

Blu I will vote for you too if you promise to get rid of the public schools while you're at it. May I suggest doing away with catchment areas and providing free school transport as well so there is real choice for families?

Talkinpeace · 26/10/2013 21:43

see I have less of a problem with private schools - a those people are already paying handsomely for the schools they are not using throgh their taxes
and all countries that have tried to abolish private schools are fodder for the UKs schools - so an excellent GDP source for the UK Wink

selective taxpayer funded schools ..... an appalling thing

catchments are trickier : they allow for long term planning in that schools are able to predict populations and thus make sure that no streets are between catchments (as is the case in parts of London)

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