Genuine question - why do some people have a problem with the grammar school system

[englishteacher78]

I went to one - my choice in part, parents would have preferred me to go to the Catholic secondary. As a teacher I have worked in two.
I know if I had gone to the Catholic school I would have coasted (even more than I did).
Some people seem to he very against the grammar school system and I'm not sure why. It was the making of my dad (miner's son from council estate in Scotland)and I think that all counties should have that provision. Surely it's just split site streaming in a way.

As a parent of children in a Comp who will go to a very good 6th form and thence to their choice of top unis
I find it staggering and rather insulting that parents in favour of children at selective schools think that I do not fully support excellence in my children's education.
Its just that I have a rather less narrow minded definition of excellence than the petty setters of the 11+

I think sometimes people have trouble distinguishing between excellence and elitism.

Talkinpeace - I agree ....

mine are both in a comp - we, and they, chose this path.

I do wish people would look again at the stats I quoted on the academic under-achievement of kids on FSM before going all "everyone has the same choices" ...

Oh, and to pick up the point about Latin: Dd1's lot are in for doing this at GCSE next year, allegedly (she sprang this on me). Just to say.

I do find it pant-wettingly hilarious that someone as madly academically judgy as I am should be accused of being opposed to academic excellence....

Ridiculous Curlew we've trying for said school because of the atmosphere and facilities which would suit my son.Others go for the highly popular alternatives(which some appeal to get into)for the sporting facilities or science.

I couldn't give a stuff re any poster's school choice so please do butt out of mine.

Schools differ in character as do children.

We have about 6 choices near us,2 are grammar.

Very bright kids at comprehensive will be enriched by the experience of being with very low ability kids and SEN kids. Witnessing them support these kids is very inspiring and impressive. It teaches them co-operation, friendship and humility and supports and builds upon their own learning experience. They are greatly enriched by mixing with such a wide range of kids.

It didn't happen in my comp Kitchen,that is a myth.

"Ridiculous Curlew we've trying for said school because of the atmosphere and facilities which would suit my son.Others go for the highly popular alternatives(which some appeal to get into)for the sporting facilities or science.

I couldn't give a stuff re any poster's school choice so please do butt out of mine."

Excuse me? Did I miss something?

Retropear
It didn't happen in my comp Kitchen,that is a myth.
It is not a myth now
because (despite what Gove wants to think) teaching methods and systems have improved dramatically in the last 20 years.
The only comp I know that does not use extensive setting is Thornden (and their results are not exactly poor)
Good comps have extensive pastoral support and do not tolerate bullying of bright kids.

When I was at school in the 70's there were lots of daft things going on in state schools - which is why I was sent to private.

Comparing what my kids get at state with what their cousins get at private, there's very little wriggle room
just that the kids at selective schools have a narrower range of friends and outlooks.

zzzz IF you read my previous posts, you'd see that I do advocate that the preternaturally bright with social/ inter-relational issues (can I italicise to make a point, please? maybe should be in a separate educational facility; DC who are almost marching to the beat of a different drum, such is their dazzling intellect; DC who would be hard to educate in any mainstream facility because their grasp of the subject could quite easily be greater than their teacher's- yes, life in a mainstream school could be hell for them, such DC often rejoice once they enter the hallowed halls of, say, Oxbridge and find others like them.

However, imo, they constitute a teeny, tiny minority of DC. The 'top 23%' don't represent that minority.

What I believe talkin means regarding 'special' (there I go again!) is a belief, writ large on MN, that somehow if one's DC falls in the upper half of the IQ bell curve, it's tantamount to child abuse if they're required to go to the same school as, let alone sit in the same classroom as a DC of lower ability. You see that a lot on here.

And why would a middle-of-the-road DC accidentally end up in a school designed for children with specific, documented real SN? I don't get that statement at all, sorry!

Yet, the reality is, plenty of very able DC fail the 11+ and end up in the 'wrong school' and many in the GS would not have got there if parents hadn't tutored for the allegedly untutorable exam to get their DC into a school they're maybe not suited for. Those scenarios definitely do happen!

I know what you mean Kitchen Diner having supported in the classroom in a mixed ability comp but OOH you could argue that the brighter kids may be dragged down and not challenged enough. Some of the kids were disruptive and it stopped others learning not necessarily from any particular ability. Sometimes they got labelled boffins and ridiculed.

I do take your point about cooperation etc

I was glad my own dc's weren't at the school as my dd's were quite studious and wanted to do well plus in there school they were in sets which IMO was better for them.

I disagree Kitchendiner, unless there is streaming, and in that case children may or may not get to mix much with groups not sharing their ability. I went to a very mixed school in Ireland and until streaming kicked in after the first year, found classroom life really frustrating. Unfortunately so did many of the teachers.

My DCs went to a US high school where streaming was in operation right from the start. They mingled hardly at all with teens of low ability or who were so badly prepared for HS that they ended up in remedial classes, but had a lot of opportunities to get to know the SEN group but through volunteer activities, and not in class. DD1's swim team didn't do cuts and there were two girls from the Special Ed division on it. That was a wonderful experience for all concerned.

In both my school and the DCs' school there was a disruptive element for want of a better word, and nobody's life was enhanced by their presence. One girl we used to live next door to was excluded permanently from regular school and sent to the school within a school that operated for teens with emotional special needs because of piercing her nose during class. Nobody really gets to learn much when something like that happens while a teacher is trying to teach the ins and outs of the Glorious Revolution and it's dispiriting for the teachers.

))))) Streaming ((((((
((((((( Setting )))))))
They are very different things. Please do not confuse them.

Talking schools vary.Our comp sets from Sats results and the higher achievers go into special booster groups from the off.

Sooooo if you come from el crappo primary your dc have more chance of being pushed at the grammar where they all start at the same level.

Heads of both have verified this.

Retropear Do they really only set once ?
How bloody lazy.
DCs school retest for sets every half term through year 7 and 8 and the kids are shuffled until their real levels are found.
And it is sets not streams so that kids are in different groups for different subject areas
reflecting the reality that there are very few all rounders, but most kids are good at something

But Talkin the ones who have missed out on the off will never catch up.

Crappy primaries have a lot to answer for.

I know this doesn't reflect current reality, but in theory 50% of children, so 15 in every primary class, are bound for university. When grammar schools were the norm, roughly 1 in 30 would have gone to uni.

Academic children should not be being left high and dry in a comprehensive school.

"But Talkin the ones who have missed out on the off will never catch up."

Are you saying that once you are in one set there is never any possibility of moving up or down? That is just wrong and not what happens in real actual schools.

Unless there is no possibility of moving up because the next set up is in a difference school, obviously.

This is interesting though an hour long! It tells the story of the formation of GSs and what they were for.

It's interesting to see how their function has mutated over the intervening years, from a vehicle for social mobility for poor DC to a way of MC parents to avoid school fees.....

Curlew I was a teacher so know full well how it all works thanks.

If one group has done work the other hasn't it is very hard to move up.

You are disadvantaged from the start.

Funny how many people are saying differently.

And anyway, the grammar school types would surely be automatically in the top sets for academic subjects in a comprehensive, so no need to worry about that.

It's interesting but I watched it on TV, so no need to see it again. But in a way, things have come full circle. The first state grammar schools had around 50% free places and 50% fee paying places. (This was the position when some of those interviewed were at these schools) The 1944 Education Act abolished the fee-paying places, but now the demographic has moved to much the same position that it was before 1944.