Probably done before but private v's state primary ?

[HelloDolly]

I know we'll choose private secoundary but will our daughter be behind if we try the local state school first ?

I don't know where to send my sons. We'll be moving to a new village soon and there's a tiny village school there. It has 30 pupils aged 5 to 11. Its ofsted report is great - says the pupil/teacher ratio is great, quality of teaching fantastic, behaviour and attitude of kids is brilliant and grades above national average.

But I am concerned because i worry it will be too small. The grounds are tiny - can't be more than 2 classrooms. Surely with that few kids in a school they can't have many peers their age? And how would they ever learn about team sports - something I think for little boys is important.

Not sure where the other local state schools are and what they're like but i have looked into private schools too. to me it seems like such a waste of money and that I'd rather save it and spend it on other things to better their lives or save for a really good secondary education for them.

That said, one of my chief concerns with going with state schools (and this is going to sound mega snobby and might piss people off - don't me to so apologies in advance) is that I worry about who my kids friends are going to be. I am terrified that they become mates with some ASBO- in-waiting deliquents because that is who's in their class. I know that that is a generalisation, but i think with private schools you stand a greater chance that there'll be fewer really rough kids around. That said, there's probably a bunch of coke snorting rich kids.

sigh. it falls into the way too complicated category.

Tinker - who is this Mandyj or Hyacinth. D onot know what you mean. Have only just joined site - not been on here before. Bought MUMSnet book - it was very good.

Withr eagrds to the OP, most of the private kids I know were initially educated in small village schools. I always wondered about that, As I think the earliest years of eduation are the most significant, but that's just me. I have to say, private ed made graduates out of some very uninspiring (or indeed uninspired) minds. IYKWIM. So for kids on the borderline, I can see the benefits. But I also know a lot of kids who really did get used to being carried and found it hard to cut it without the support, despite (in one particular case) a rather brilliant mind. Indeed, in two cases I can think of, friends with many A grades at A-Level went on to under achieve significantly because things ahd been just that bit too easy for them.

That said, there is a private school I would send my lads to- OK, there's two, the one for DS1 is a sports school and probably would ignore his difficulties in favour of his sporting abilities. the other two would go to a school with a very caring, Quaker based approach. Because that's what I want for them, to be caring people.

It's a case of finding the school that matches your ethos. But they exist in private AND state sectors.

I was lucky enough to go to a very well known public school and I have always been privately educated. however my DH was not and he happened to be at one of the top comprehensives in the country (and a very good state primary) with a better reputation than many of the top public schools.

I think that it really depends on where you live.

However DS always says that he was never pushed as much as he could have been at school and had quite laid back parents. I on the otherhand was really pushed. DS is quite lazy and I am not (he agrees with me). he is much brighter than I am.

I think that it really depends on

a) where you live - why pay for the education if you donlt have to and you can get your child into a good primary school

b) what your plans are for the secondary education. If you are being "primed" for the public schools then you do need to make sure that the primary school you choose is able to get your child in.

c The child - especially for secondary eductaion. there is a big difference emotionally between the academic pressures of some schools v a nice private school. I was a boarder and I know some people hated it while I really enjoyed it. Also some children do ot thrive until they leave and I have not actually done that well in my career (I've done OK) but there are people who did not do as well as I did at school who are now captains of industry and top in their fields.

For MY DS I think I will privately educate for primary as I feel that it is actually more important to get a really good grounding and believe in educationf rom an early age. Jury's still out for secondary - although sswaying for private. We live in London so the choice is pretty shit for state.

Wow, sobernow, your experience does sound a bit freaky, if interesting
All independent schools not otherwise accredited (IAPS is the usual for private preps/primaries IME) are now legally required to be inspected by Ofsted. Ds' school was done by IAPS last year and very rigorously too. The big difference IMO was the less standardised language the final report was written in - not Ofsted-speak IYSWIM.
We went the independent route because of our concerns about the National Curriculum and SATS at seven. The latter is gone now, thank goodness, but we still have big reservations about the NC and don't regret the decision for a minute. Ds' school is small, with small classes, non-academically selective, good SN provision and has a whole-school ethos which means the cleaners and caretakers are as important to the success of the school as the teachers.
Uniform is not that different from the local state sector - we still have ties in a lot of state primaries round here - and atmosphere not pushy or bling. There are no more competitive mums there than one hears about everywhere else on here.
The borough where we live is nearly bottom of the league tables in general and very worryingly now has only one even vaguely acceptable non-faith secondary school. Said school operates a rigid catchment area, it has to.
You pay one way or the other in our part of London. 1) You get a ruinous scary mortgage and decamp to Dulwich, Bickley, Chislehurst or Bexley Village. 2) You risk ruining your child's last couple of years at school by adding tuition for the adjacent borough's 11 plus to their weekly schoolwork load - and it costs. 3) You decide in for a penny, in for a pound, and go private from 4, hoping not to have to from 11. 4) You are not in a position to pay for any of the above, you do your best for your child, but you know that at 11 they will have one of the worst selection of schools in the UK to pick from :( despite a lot of good work going on in our state primaries

Sobernow, that was pretty much my sitation as well. I was definitely the poorest perosn in my year at school.

Not everyone with money is arrogant though and I think that it's more about the attitudes you have. My parents believed in education and sent me to the schools that they did because they thought it would give me the best start in life.

Ironically, although I enjoyed my time there and did get a great deal from my education I feel that sometimes in a way I have failed them since I am not the really successful person I perhaps could have been given all the money they spent on me.

I think there are different ways of defining successful. Whether you have a career is only one, surely. For me school is not only a place where you can gain qualifications but somewhere you spend a considerable amount of time that will shape your views and influence the person you become.

Yes that is definitely true and I know that I have got alot from my education.

However my DH would argue that he has too and yet he did not have the amount of money spent on his education that I had.

For a start he was at home and I was away. He can't understand why I was sent away and he wants our DS to be at home, which I agree with.

I think that education depends on so much - the head teacher, the area you live, the ethos of the school etc etc. However, good state schools are not easy to come by and that's why there such a jostle to get your child in there. A lot of it is down to luck.

Sobernow, the school you worked in does sound like a freak school tbh. In this day and age it is pretty rare to have awful teaching, no observations etc regardless of state or private. Parents wouldn't stand for this whether they're paying fees or taxes to keep the school going and neither would the inspectors.

My 2 nearest independent schools are both deemed to have 'excellent' teaching in their inspection reports. All teachers at these schools are qualified to teach and a significant number have Masters and Doctorates as well. Children also have specialist PE, swimming and music lessons by qualified teachers as well as tehir usual class teacher from Reception. Class sizes in one school are 20 max and 25 max in the other with 2 TAs as well as qualified class teacher. My understanding is that 25 is pretty large for the private sector but even this compared to the average of 30 in the state sector means children will get significantly more attention. The schools both follow the NC and children sit SATS, GCSEs and A/S Levels where students perform significantly better than their state counterparts. It's also worth mentioning that where I live the indepndent schools are the only schools where there is a genunine ethnic mix because the state school are either nearly 100% Asian or C of E or Catholic and almost entirely white.

As a qualified teacher myself I agree with those of you who commented on the PGCE. We received 1 afternoon on behaviour managment and one afternoon on SEN. This is woefully inadequate preparation for teaching in the state sector. The reason many teachers leave the state system is not because they're incompetent but just because some state schools are so awful. I was actually quite traumatised by my experience of the state sector since a lot of the students were able to get away with verbal and sometimes physical abuse of teachers on a fairly regular basis. If adults find it difficult to cope in this environment how on earth are kids meant to deal with it? At my dp's school a boy (already on an Asbo) has just been sent down for assaulting dp. Admittedly dp works in a school for students with EBD but these are students who have been in the state sector and the kinds of kids he came across regularly while doing supply teaching in tough state schools. Fortunately he has a thicker skin than me!

Having said that I deplore Hyacinth's comment. There are many excellent state schools where I'd be happy to work and would be happy to send my kids. Just not the ones near me. A

All schools have to be ofsted inspected since 2003..I understand, although it does some of them a disservice

My ds is going private for primary school(starts in Sept) and unless he hates it, will stay private all the way through. The local primary schools are excellent, with fantastic results. However, the local secondary school does not have the same academic record and its the devils own job to get a child of 10+ into a local private school. We have therefore decided to bite the bullet and send him from reception onwards. If we lived in a different area and the secondary provision in the state sector was good, he would go state. Sad but true, it is cheaper to send him private than to move.

JoshandJamie,

Sport is important and of course a tiny village school can't provide much in the way of team games.You will have to do what most village parents do,that is find local clubs with junior sections.Our boys have played football at school, but everything else is played with local club teams.Cricket,tennis,and badminton are all avaiable within walking distance,as of course is the school.Swimming,rugby,hockey and martial arts are all available in other larger villages, and are just a short car ride away.

I have never known any children from a tiny village school who turned into 'ASBO carrying delinquents'.Unfortunately I do know 3 privately educated pupils who even with straigt As and a gap year still couldn't hack university. Their parents are gutted.

Also at primary level you will to some extent to be able choose who they mix with, but eventually they will have to learn who's nice and who isn't.Personally I think a great village school with good teachers is the best place to learn!

notagranny, I'm sure you're right that great village schools with good teachers would provide pretty much the best educational environment. Unfortunately we can't all live in tiny villages (though it seems an incredible amount of mumsnetters do!) and if everyone did the schools wouldn't be that great anymore.

Yes we're probably lucky at primary level,but very little choice at secondary.Almost everyone sends their kids to the catchment school. The local private secondary schools are very academically selective and certainly do not cater for special needs.They are also mainly single sex and I wouldn't want to send mine to an all boys school.

Private school sending DS to is Church run and quite small. Small class sizes (15 children at most). Am hoping to follow through private schooling for entire schooling for DS.

People who've chosen private primary - have you gone single sex or co-ed and what have been the pros and cons?

martianbishop have you not found that as you hve become a more experienced teacher and perhaps the concerns move from how can I get the buggers to behave to how can I get them to fulfill their potential that your PGCE comes into play.

I find I use the knowledge and skills I gathered during my PGCe have been at the core of my teaching. Perhaps I was lucky in getting a good PGCE placememnt where I could practice my craft and an excellent tutor.

Single sex primary seems a bit much. I think it's good for kids to get to know the enemy. (That was my mum's stated reason for sending us co-ed at secondary. She was funny.:))

I think DP and I agree with you ScummyMummy. But co-ed means that we'll have to change her school at 11, rather than leaving her in one place from 4 to 16. I suppose in any case anything could happen in 12 years that might mean she had to change school.

Wouldn't it be a bit boring being in one school her whole life though?

We have friends who have sent dd from pre-prep age (3or4)- age 11, to a private school some 20 miles from home. She is taken to and collected from school every day by parents or grandmother.
In Sept she will start at the senior school 11-18 on the same site.She will never have to travel to school by herself and will have some of the same classmates from 3-18! Can't help thinking it will be a shock when she as to enter the real world!
I did suggest once to her mum that dd might enjoy joining a brownie pack so that she could meet some local children but apparently school has its own brownie pack,swimming club,etc.

No need to mix with the locals at all then!

Re the single-sex/co-ed debate, as I understand it, research suggests boys do better (at least academically but probably in otehr ways too) in co-ed and girls in single sex. This is because boys tend to be more likely to be disruptive than girls and also when there are no boys girls are more likely to be active in 'traditionally boys' subjects e.g. science, maths and sport. This more-or-less tallies with my experience as a pupil and teacher in co-ed though, of course, it's a generalisation.

My dds are going to a family of private schools which provide a continuum from 3-18. Kindergarten is co-ed but the Prep schools are single sex (from 7) as are the grammar schools. Although I'm a little uncomfortable with single-sex education I've got girls so I feel the advantages will outweigh the disadvantages for them. Also, the schools have joint activities and, since the schools are part of the same 'family' there are opportunities to mix with pupils from the opposite gender which means they won't be entirely alien.

twinsetand pearls. Re the PGCE getting more useful...this has not been my experience. All the helpful stuff was, to my mind at any rate, common sense. Children learn best when in a secure and positive environment do they, well durr!

my tutor was horrid, an ofstead insector who talked the talk but would last 30 seconds in a real class. She also fancied herself as an expert of learning theory and neurobiology and really wasn't. She was utterly negative for all of my year....so much for positive behaviour managment h?